The famous poor mans leica?

[jukka]

Actually posted this same question on the introduction thread but maybe it would suit better here. I recently lost my epl1 and been shooting every since with FM2n and like it very much. However, I mainly do street shooting and feel that this particular Nikon is not the best tool for it.

Instead of ep3 or nex7, which I have both considered as my new street toy, it occurred to me to buy some sort of film rangefinder with silent shutter and fast manual focus. Unfortunately I don't have the cash or even the will to invest into a leica, so could someone recommend a mid priced rangefinder replacement for street?

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[Derrel]

Ricoh GX-R, with the A12 or M-mount module looks like one good choice. I have been toying with the idea of that camera for use with my rangefinder lenses. It is an APS-C sized sensor...I'm not willing to go down to the postage stamp sized sensors when APS-C is available in the same price range.

Ooops, I read the question wrong...you want a film camera...I dunno about the "silent shutter" requirement. I've not heard many quiet shutters. The Voigtlander rfdr bodies are not that quiet, but the focus is fast.
See CameraQuest Home Page

[jukka]

Yeah, I noticed I wrote that in a bit unclear fashion. Thanks for info, am now currently looking into voigtlander rfdrs, which would seem just right for me. The nikon fm2 has a noticable click with the shutter (which can sometime annoy doing street shooting), and I've been told rfdrs would be more silent, no idea why.

[usayit]

Budget?

Here are some suggestions to start out with

* Voigtlander Rangefinder w/ interchangeable lenses of choice depending on whether electronic or manual shutter and which frame lines you want. Compatible with Leica lenses.
Voigtlander Bessa Chart

* Canonette - Most will need rear seals replaced. Easy DIY job

* Contax G series.

* For digital, you might be able to pull off an Epson R-D1 but it is quirky with some disadv/adv. I understand you mean film but I figure i would just throw this out there. I have one.



"Fast focusing" is more of a function of the lens than camera body. Short versus long focus throw and properly damped.
Budget? niche products can be pricey. Have you ever shot with a true rangefinder before? What sort of user experience are you looking for? Shooting with a rangefinder is a different user experience... some hate it.. some love it...

[Derrel]

Nice job on the Bessa Chart, usayit. I briefly looked at it, and noted that it says that the electronic shutter in the R2A and R3A models is "noticeably quieter than the mechanical shutter", but "not as quiet as Leica shutters". I cannot imagine anything from Cosina being as quiet as a Leica shutter mechanism. I own a Bessa R, which has a pretty simple mechanically-timed shutter, perhaps even the same one in the Nikon FM-10 which Cosina makes for Nikon,and I think it sounds rather "clattery". The Nikon FM2 has plenty of components to its shutter release noise signature: mirror up, lens diaphragm stop-down,shutter, then mirror return sounds emanating from it; the Cosina-made Voigtlander Bessa bodies have no diaphragm action noise, no mirror slap noise,no mirror return noise....it's just "one click". Or, more like one "Clank!", at least with the mechanically-timed shutter I am familiar with from my Bessa.

I'm actually thinking that for street shooting, a digital camera would be handier than a 35mm film camera like a Bessa. I watched the DigitalRev 11 minute video of the Ricoh GX-R with M-module, but Kai is such a dipstick, and so flippant and young and inexperienced, that his "comparison" and his "comments" on the focusing of the Ricoh left me wondering who is in charge at that site WRT to video production. For street shooting, you ought to be able to focus by scale, specially with rangefinder lenses with decent distance scales, which is the majority of lenses actually.

[jukka]

Yeah, think my budged would cover a used R3A with a lens. Now, I don't have much experience shooting rfdr, but enough so I can with some confidence say it would suit my purposes, namely I consider the rfdr focusing screen faster to use, although there must be different ones there too.

I used to own an epl1 with the 20mm panny, but my brother forgot in a bar, boo, so I have moral justification to buy a new cam. In the meanwhile, like said, been shooting FM2 and totally felled into film.

Actually when the gear fever rises, its difficult to let go, and I think I want the R3A. The question is which lens. I'm used to 50mm 1.2 nikkor and just bought the nikkor 28mm 2.0, so maybe something in between. Appreciate the help (and especially the chart), could you still recommend me one.

p.s. should you be interest here are links to two of my sets. The first one shot with the FM2 and the second Oly.

fun, loathing and jet lagging - a set on Flickr

Randoms - a set on Flickr

[fotoshooter]

An excellent "street" film camera is the Kodak Retina IIa. It has a 50mm f/2 lens with a quiet leaf shutter and takes photos comparable to my Leicas..

[Derrel]

I looked at your gallery fun,loathing and jet lagging. Some nice stuff in there. You could shoot with anything that you like.

As for lenses, Cosina/Voigtlander has many, and they are generally well-made and of good quality. Voigtlander RF Leica Mount Lens Chart

Hard to tell another person what lenses he will find useful...I would "guess" you'd enjoy a 28mm, a 35mm, and maybe a 50mm for wider views, and then a 75mm as a medium tele lens, and for ultra-wide views, the 15mm. Focal length selection depends a LOT of the user; many consider 28mm on 24x36 to be the "normal" lens; others consider 21 or 25 to be their regular lens; still others feel that 35mm represents "normal", and 50 is the "tele" due to its more-selective nature.

[dots]

Hexar RF has a silent mode.

it occurred to me to buy some sort of film rangefinder with silent shutter

However it's also AF ..2/35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konica_Hexar

[BlairWright]

Rollei has some good options too, hunt around eBay a bit..

[usayit]

Hexar RF is going to cost as much as an M3 or M2. Its silent mode is for the winder if I recall correctly. It was better than the Leica's of similar time frame in some ways.... and lacking in others. Definitely an options (I considered one prior to an M6 classic). Kodak Retina IIa, never had any extensive use of one.... remember at that age, you'll need someone to CLA if this is going to be a user. Not sure if you can find someone who can CLA a Kodak Retina IIa very easily.

As for which body and which lens... wow... that's a loaded question. Ask a dozen street photogs that question and you'll most likely get 12 different answers and reasons to back each one. (No matter which system they use) They'll often fight tooth and nail to prove their reason. hahaha

My take on lens: On a full frame, I can shoot a 50mm all day long but generally walk around with either a kit of two (35mm and 75mm) or three (24mm, 50mm, 90mm). 24mm is lovely for someone who likes to shoot at the hip. Its just wide enough but not so much that it distorts and you get gobs of depth of field to work. I've met people who swear by 21mm (VC 21mm skopar f/4), I have one and haven't given it much use; perhaps I haven't given it a chance. Someone who likes to get in close for a story will generally go for either a 28mm or 35mm. Someone who keep their distance and likes to bring their viewer to a single subject will like longer; 50s or slightly longer. A fast 28mm is lovely in low light... fast shutter speeds but very usable DOF unlike fast apertures with telephotos. Its absolutely beautiful focal length for more an intimate feel.

Here's the hard part... you said "fast focusing" which often is a balance between damping, short focus throw, and long focus throw. Often its a personal preference that is very very very subjective. Some will say short focus throw lens makes it too difficult to get accuracy and long focus throw is more accurate (but too slow). Others will say a highly damped focus ring is great for accurate focus but others again say it takes too much effort thus slowing them down. Others like the focus tabs others hate them. There is a good reason why many manual lens shooters will buy and sell lenses often until they find one that "connects" with them. This is also the reason why very fast lenses (aperture) are equipped with very damped and long focus throws.... accuracy since the DOF is very shallow.

Probably not making it easy on you... sorry... selecting a lens is very much like a painter selecting a brush; no wrong or right its very subjective.

Just to let you know, I have the following Voigtlander lenses:

* 12mm Heliar - fun lens. Vignettes and color casts on a digital
* 35mm f/1.2 Nokton - Fast 35mm, reasonably sharp (not tack sharp wide open). Big heavy slow focus. Low contrast
* 28mm f/1.9 Ultron - I like it.
* 21mm f/4 - Haven't used it much.

My fastest focusing (to me) lenses are the newer Leica Summarits. I had all 4; 35/50/75/90. All were short and lightly damped but not too light. I like the feel.

So if I were to buy a Voigtlander street shooter without an unlimited budget, what would I consider?

Body: R3A
1) AE Lock and manual LED meter
2) 37mm base rangefinder length (Longer is more accurate)
3) (Big reason) 1:1 rangefinder. Meaning that there is zero magnification (short or long) on the rangefinder. You can shoot and view the world as you normally would. You can shoot with both eyes open. (I LOVED this on my R-D1 rangefinder which is based on a voigtlander body)
4) 50/90 frame lines with the base rangefinder length long enough for accuracy on the 90mm.
5) You can still work wider focal lengths with viewfinders. I personally don't mind using external viewfinders for wider focal lengths or often "estimate".

Lens:
The problem with recommending specifics here is that I don't know what the focus action (damping and throw) feels like on the entire line of the Voigtlander lenses.

I'd probably start with a single lens; 40mm f/1.4 Nokton (multi-coated). In between 50mm and 35mm for a good single lens/ single focal length to carry around. Fast 1.4 aperture. Judging from the photos, it looks to be 1/3 turn from near to far focus. Not too bad. It has a focus tab (which I like). It looks pretty compact too.

Then it would be the 28mm f/2 Ultron. Smaller, improved version of mine. I like it. Focus throw isn't too bad. (add 28mm viewfinder).

Then it would be the new 75mm f/1.8 heliar. Simply because I'm dying to try one out right now.


Another great option that i forgot to mention!!! Old Canon Rangefinders which are based on the Leica screwmount rangefinder designs post WWII. Leica II III rangefinders are much more expensive because of collectors. Cheaper than Bessa even after a CLA. CLA should be easy enough to find. Leica screwmount so many lenses (including some of the screwmount Voigtlanders) are available to choose from. The rangefinder is a bit "squinty" but still effective. Its actually better than the Leica III because the rangefinder and viewfinder are in a single unit. Cloth shutter is quieter than the shutters on the Voigtlanders Bessa's above.


My choice would be

Canon IV SB2 (I have one)
CLA'd from camerarepair.com (new shutter curtain and overhaul)
50mm collapsable f/1.5 (albeit, mine has a stiff aperture ring)
28mm f/1.9 Ultron and viewfinder.
Voigtlander VCII meter. (I like presetting exposure at the hip prior to even composing a photo)

[jukka]

Thanks for this massive information, much appreciated! I think I'll try to go with R3A body and a 40 mm f1.4 nokton lens, while also looking into the canon rgfd which sounds pretty interesting too. Anyway, the focal length of 40mm should be just ok and its certainly fast enough. Actually already found an offer on ebay with that combo. Thanks again for sharing the info everyone!

[DiskoJoe]

You could get a zorki.

Camera Russia ZORKI-4 Leica copy 35mm JUPITER 8.Service 50 years of Soviet power | eBay

I thought this thread was actually about zorki from your title.

You could also go sony nex. With the nex you can get adaptors where you can use leica lens on them.

[dots]

A Leica is a poor man's Alpa anyway /trol

[gsgary]

You could get a zorki.

Camera Russia ZORKI-4 Leica copy 35mm JUPITER 8.Service 50 years of Soviet power | eBay

I thought this thread was actually about zorki from your title.

You could also go sony nex. With the nex you can get adaptors where you can use leica lens on them.

Me got one