Giving away your "secrets"

[fjrabon]

Jowens, I think you're conflating technique and art. Art can't be taught, because how you apply art to any given situation is about being creative. Technique can of course be taught, and shouldn't be hoarded. The more we all share our knowledge of technique, the more we all have better technique, and the more all of our photos are better, and the more we can focus on creativity instead of technique.

Techniques can be taught. There are people who could paint exactly like Picasso, even in his day. They could easily copy any of his paintings and nobody could tell the difference.

The difference though is that he created them, and he had an artistic vision that he executed. The people who copied his paintings couldn't create original works of art of their own (well some could, but they actually didn't look like Picassos, some of the forgers were talented in their own right, but I digress).

Same thing with photography. You can learn all the techniques in the world, but that's not going to make you a great photographer in the creative sense. If so, Scott Kelby would be one of the 10 greatest photographers in the world. He's not (though I do think his photography has vastly improved since he started publishing his how-to books).

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[Railphotog]

I've done a lot of photography as a part of my model railroad hobby, and have had a lot of luck with my photos in the hobby press and contests over the past 25 or so years. I have no problem offering help to others who might want try what I've been able to do. In fact, I have a whole website devoted to helping newcomers.

I've always agreed with something I read a long time ago, that "information not shared is information lost".

I also recall something attributed to Homer Simpson (?) " Either that's a forgery or a damned good original".

[sovietdoc]

Secrets slow progress.

Any profession that a possibility of artistic creativity, has limitless possibilities. Any artist who creates something new and then keeps it to himself is missing the point of art, the point of what he is doing.

For artist, there are two ways in this world:

1 - Do it for the art and for the people
2 - Do it for the money

There are multiple compromises in between (I don't think there are any compromises at all but other people think there are) but generally speaking those are the 2 big approaches.

Usually, artists do not share because they're out to make money. If you're sharing you secrets and you're trying to make money, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. BUT this is missing the point of art.

And I must say this: One who creates art for profit only , regardless of his talent, will have limited success in his creations.

[jowensphoto]

I have worked with some of the best sports photographers in the world, we share tips and techniques all the time. Some guys come up with amazing ideas, things that I would never have thought of, and the decent guys tell how it was done. I really don't have any time for photographers that "think" they are the only ones that have come up with some super secret way of doing things, chances are it has been done before.

I can use this short story that is related. A friend of mine built and raced a drag car years ago, one day he shows up to the track with a toggle switch on the back of the car, just before each race his partner would flick the switch, all the other drivers kept asking what it was for, he seemed to have an advantage. All he said was "it's a secret" Truth be told, it was just a toggle switch that was not connected to anything, but it gave him a psycological advantage. Photographers that want to hide things, all smoke and mirrors.

I agree with this. But I don't believe Picasso was like hey, you wanna copy me?! Here's how you do it...

Those people still had the technical ability to recreate with out being told what to do. That doesn't make it art... Just as running some crappy over priced action doesn't make a photo art (even though the original use by original user could have been fantastic).

[fjrabon]

I have worked with some of the best sports photographers in the world, we share tips and techniques all the time. Some guys come up with amazing ideas, things that I would never have thought of, and the decent guys tell how it was done. I really don't have any time for photographers that "think" they are the only ones that have come up with some super secret way of doing things, chances are it has been done before.

I can use this short story that is related. A friend of mine built and raced a drag car years ago, one day he shows up to the track with a toggle switch on the back of the car, just before each race his partner would flick the switch, all the other drivers kept asking what it was for, he seemed to have an advantage. All he said was "it's a secret" Truth be told, it was just a toggle switch that was not connected to anything, but it gave him a psycological advantage. Photographers that want to hide things, all smoke and mirrors.

I agree with this. But I don't believe Picasso was like hey, you wanna copy me?! Here's how you do it...

Those people still had the technical ability to recreate with out being told what to do. That doesn't make it art... Just as running some crappy over priced action doesn't make a photo art (even though the original use by original user could have been fantastic).

You'd be surprised... For instance Andres Segovia would go into painstaking detail about every single aspect of his guitar technique, down to the tiniest millimeter of his vibrato. Ansel Adams was relatively forthcoming about his technique.

[e.rose]

I'm not afraid to tell anyone anything. Everything I've learned is a result of someone being generous enough to teach me something, I'm not going to disrespect those that helped me by pretending like I'm some photographic genius that did everything on her own, created each technique I use out of nothing, an therefore have golden secrets to keep.

People ask me all the time how I did something and I always tell them. If I'm not in a place where I can't give full details (sometimes its just easier to SHOW someone something rather than explain it in text), I'll at least try to point them in the direction of some useful resources.

I couldn't learn without the help of others... I pay it forward.

[Schwettylens]

I'll share all of the Schwetty secret sauce. Plenty for everyone.

[rlemert]

You could tell me all your secrets, and you could even guide me while I'm putting them into practice. Chances are, though, that we will not reach the same place. I don't have your eye or your experience, so I'm not going to see things the same way you do, even if we start with the same raw image. All that sharing your techniques will do for me is give me another tool to add to my mental toolbox - something that will have to simmer in the melting pot of my mind while I develop my own style.

I might wind up eventually producing something better than your work (unlikely), or I might fail to live up to your standards (more likely). Either way, I won't ever be your clone.

[Desi]

When I was first getting into photography, I asked the pro who did my family pictures why he did the lighting the way he did (a backlit outdoor shot). His answer: "I could tell you, and talk for hours about it, but you wouldn't understand." And he was right.

Instead, he asked me questions and found out my level of experience and then told me to go study composition and gave me some basic rules on use of aperture. That night I googled composition, discovered the rule of thirds, and stopped centering all of my subjects.

So: share....give....don't be stingy.....but give what is needed.

In Mishele's case: She gives inspiration. I'm glad she's not telling. If she told me, I wouldn't understand. I'm just learning the very basics of macro. And, I'm getting a heck of a lot more out of trying to figure it out by thinking about her images than I would by having her tell me.

[e.rose]

Now that I'm at a computer, I wanted to comment again and expand on what I said...

Let me ask this question then -- what about a question about processing? Even to the point of sharing processing secrets that would allow somebody else to create the same type of images in PP? I'm not sure that's the type of information I'd readily share with others if it took me time to develop it.

That's exactly the kind of stuff people ask me about, and that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm not afraid to tell them.

The fact of the matter is, back when I was trying to learn skin smoothing, I saw someone HERE... someone I actually still communicate with regularly, post an image with excellent skin smoothing and when I asked him how he achieved it, because I was struggling, he wouldn't tell me.

Then one day, out of frustration, I posted in a MM forum asking what I was doing wrong, and a photographer from NJ PM'd me and invited me out to his studio so he could SHOW ME EXACTLY what it was he did.

I asked him what the catch was, and he said, "The space I rent out of is in a gallery and we are committed to the mission statement that we will help out new artists and inner city youth, etc. and teach them to get them more involved in the arts... I do this all the time..." (or something to that affect. I don't remember the mission statement word for word.) So one weekend I drove 2 hours to NJ and met with this guy who sat with me for another 2 hours and showed me step by step, and explaining WHAT each step did and WHY he did each step for skin smoothing/retouching... and then sent me home with a tutorial video he made showing the same exact thing. He let me ask him questions... he made sure I understood... and my skin smoothing is MUCH better than that blurry mess I used to do.

But does my work look exactly like his, now that he showed me what he does?

Not even close.

I took what he taught me and I incorporated it into my own style... just like I did with any other technique I learned along the way... and just like I expect of anyone else I teach a technique to along the way.

In terms of post processing, sure you can come up with the exact same thing. You click the same buttons in the same sequence, and VOILA! Instant copycat recipe. Like actions in photochop.

Not true. Again, if you took David's images and pushed a button to put an "action" of everything he does to his images on MY images... MY images STILL wouldn't look the same as his, because we photograph differently.

You can't just buy an action and run it on your images and expect it to look perfect every time, or exactly like someone ELSE's image. You try to process a sh!tty photo with an action... or manually with a technique... it's still gonna be a sh!tty photo.

There are always going to be certain nuances that distinguish people. Post processing does not make the ENTIRETY of an image.



All of my photography idols that I have ever asked how something was done... they've ALWAYS been happy to help. The people that were tight lipped about what they did were people that weren't even as good as the ones that DID share with me, and were struggling to get noticed, get business, what have you... so obviously keeping their secrets wasn't doing them any more good than others sharing their secretes with me did them any harm.

Because I find that most people are willing to help me out, the ones that don't, I tend to find pretentious. I'm not ever MAD about it, because I DO expect to get "no" for an answer from time to time, but it always is slightly off putting when someone flat out says, "No I won't tell you ANYTHING." At the very least most people tell you SOMETHING, haha.

I don't always expect a step by step by step, but there's a great photographer in town who I met and asked him about some of his images and he was happy to give me a verbal outline of how he achieved it.

I never copy, I incorporate techniques... and I'm not afraid to tell anyone how *I* do something because they're not me and most likely aren't shooting the same subjects as me, or in the same style (in camera) as I, and a portion of their PPing is most likely different than mine...

And it's just like I said before... I wouldn't be where I'm at with my work if it weren't for the generosity of people on THIS VERY FORUM, teaching me, helping me, giving me tips... even sending me legit copies of software they no longer needed... for FREE, because THEY were "paying it forward".

I'm not so proud as to pretend like I got here on my own, so I don't think it's even moral of me NOT to help people out when they need it.

Obviously everyone is going to have a different opinion on it, but that's mine.

[e.rose]

In Mishele's case: She gives inspiration. I'm glad she's not telling. If she told me, I wouldn't understand. I'm just learning the very basics of macro. And, I'm getting a heck of a lot more out of trying to figure it out by thinking about her images than I would by having her tell me.

As far as Mish is concerned.... I don't think I've ever asked her how she did what she does... at least not seriously with the intention of trying it... because she works on entirely different subject matter than I do...

But I definitely enjoy her work and it certainly IS inspiring.

[Desi]

I guess it all depends on your teaching style......and your learning style. You can't be the right teacher to every student, and vice-versa.

[jowensphoto]

Ive seen a few ask. I think the uniqueness of her art is awesome, and should stay that way. Im inspired by her to think outside the box.

[baturn]

Well, I read this whole thread (ten minutes I'll never get back). In anutshell for you all--If you want to share,do so, if not, who gives a crap?

[e.rose]

Well, I read this whole thread (ten minutes I'll never get back). In anutshell for you all--If you want to share,do so, if not, who gives a crap?

Pretty much,

Everyone has their reasons and no one is going to convince anyone any other way.