Canon bokeh vs. Zeiss bokeh

shortpballer · 10-22-2009, 11:10 AM

Here is a picture I took with a canon mount zeiss 50 1.4

And a picture with the Canon 85 1.2L

I was surprised at the COMPLETE difference in the looks of the bokeh. Both are very pleasing. The zeiss seems to give a more film bokeh, while the canon seems to give a really creamy bokeh.

ssnxp · 10-22-2009, 11:13 AM

Thanks for the pictures; I personally like the 85mm 1.2L better.

o hey tyler · 10-22-2009, 11:14 AM

Personally, I am more concerned with the fact that you are drinking Natural Ice.

Sw1tchFX · 10-22-2009, 11:18 AM

welll DUH there's going to be a difference, You shot with a 50mm and an 85! not to mention the 85 is faster!

Failure IMO. This is like comparing a ford F-150 to a bmw, DUH the BMW is faster and smoother, it's a car, not a truck!

DScience · 10-22-2009, 11:19 AM

Well first off, this isn't the most accurate test. Simply the difference in aperture (1.2 vs 1.4) is going to have a profound affect on bokeh.

Second, the focal length has a big influence as well.

shortpballer · 10-22-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Sw1tchFX

welll DUH there's going to be a difference, You shot with a 50mm and an 85! not to mention the 85 is faster!

Failure IMO. This is like comparing a ford F-150 to a bmw, DUH the BMW is faster and smoother, it's a car, not a truck!

First of all if you guys would look closely there is a HUGE difference, and it is due to the design of the lenses. The zeiss produces more choppy, film-like bokeh.

And by the way they were both taken at 1.4 for comparison purposes

syphlix · 10-22-2009, 11:37 AM

i think i like the second one better.

what does "film bokeh" mean?

shortpballer · 10-22-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by syphlix

i think i like the second one better.

what does "film bokeh" mean?

I would say it applies to the aperture blades, In film days lenses had less aperture blades, the bokeh comes out more choppy. With the 85 1.2 it is circular, so the bokeh will look very creamy.

Thats what I would assume... lol! someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I just wanted to show you guys the difference as I was amazed

Dao · 10-22-2009, 11:50 AM

I think it will make more sense if you compare a 50mm lens to a 50mm lens.

shortpballer · 10-22-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Dao

I think it will make more sense if you compare a 50mm lens to a 50mm lens.

well couldn't exactly do that, as I do not have a canon 50 at this moment.

MrLogic · 10-22-2009, 11:55 AM

The Cosina-made "Zeiss" lenses are not known for their creamy "bokeh," regardless of the different focal lengths used here. But yeah... this isn't the most accurate "test."

Derrel · 10-22-2009, 12:04 PM

No surprises,really. There is no such thing as "film bokeh". The Zeiss brand of lenses has long been known to produce bokeh that is,well, often jarring. In recent years, and I mean very recent years, the term bokeh has come into vogue, and is widely misused. The term was first brought to the attention of the English-speaking world by Mike Johnston, a little over 12 years ago now.

To many people bokeh means "out of focus specular highlights", which is only one aspect of bokeh; DScience loves making photos that have small, point sources of light in the background, but that is only the portion of bokeh known as the "specular highlight rendition". OOF specualr highlights are fun to shoot, and a lens that renders OOF specular highlights with a nice shape is fun to own and shoot. But specular highlight rendering is only one aspect of bokeh.

To many people, bokeh means "an out of focus background". That is not what bokeh is. To many people, the more out of focus the background is, the more they think they have achieved "bokeh". Again, it's not a quantity thing--it's about the quality, the character, and the characteristics of the out of focus areas that a lens creates that makes up bokeh.

Last night I was putting together a list of articles on bokeh from some sources that are accurate, and reasoned. Here it is.

The Online Photographer: What Is Bokeh?

Bokeh Test

Bokeh in Pictures

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_1/1...hrankings5.pdf
Mike Johnston's 2005 bokeh list in .pdf format, free download

Bokeh: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Silverbased | Bokeh: What it is and isn’t

Learning bokeh - Page 3 - Rangefinderforum.com

Here is an example of a person with a very shallow understanding of bokeh, and who has developed a bunch of bokeh "textures", thinking that bokeh refers exclusively to out of focus specular highlights or out of focus lights. Still,it's interesting to see what one person's incomplete idea of bokeh is all about 155+ Free Grungy And Beautiful Bokeh Textures | Little Box Of Ideas

Dwig · 10-22-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by shortpballer

Quote: Originally Posted by syphlix

i think i like the second one better.

what does "film bokeh" mean?

I would say it applies to the aperture blades, In film days lenses had less aperture blades, ...

Balderdash.

One, the number of blades has very, very, very little to do with the quality of bokeh. Two, the shape of the aperture has only a little to do with the quality of bokeh, Three, "in film days" lenses had easily as many and very often more blades than modern lenses.

Check out this link that was posted in another bokeh thread here recently:
http://www.rickdenney.com/bokeh_test.htm

The biggest factors affecting the quality of bokeh lie in the optical design. The 50mm f/1.4 shows what I consider very poor bokeh. Small round highlights (there's one on the right side of the image) show a bright ring. This is cause by slight overcorrection of spherical aberration. The 85mm f/1.2 isn't fantastic, but is much better. It seems to show evidence of a very slight bright ring causing the blur to have too much of an edge (look at the edge of the white roof in the center; it doesn't feather out completely but stops suddenly).

newrmdmike · 10-22-2009, 05:32 PM

beer fail for sure.

musicaleCA · 10-22-2009, 05:57 PM

Thank you so much, Derrel and Dwig. The...misguided notions in this thread were giving me a headache. *applauds*

10-22-2009, 11:10 AM	#1
shortpballer I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 550 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts My Gallery: (15)	Canon bokeh vs. Zeiss bokeh Here is a picture I took with a canon mount zeiss 50 1.4 And a picture with the Canon 85 1.2L I was surprised at the COMPLETE difference in the looks of the bokeh. Both are very pleasing. The zeiss seems to give a more film bokeh, while the canon seems to give a really creamy bokeh. __________________ Nikon D3X Nikon D2X 24-70 2.8G 70-200 2.8 VR II White Lightning X1600 times 4 cybersync setup with cybercommander new to photography but loving every minute my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vibrantportraits model mayhem: http://www.modelmayhem.com/vibrantportraits

10-22-2009, 11:14 AM	#3
o hey tyler I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Brunswick, ME Posts: 302 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts My Gallery: (0)	Personally, I am more concerned with the fact that you are drinking Natural Ice. __________________ My HumbleVoice

10-22-2009, 11:18 AM	#4
Sw1tchFX TPF Junkie! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Portland! Posts: 5,527 My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts My Gallery: (0)	welll DUH there's going to be a difference, You shot with a 50mm and an 85! not to mention the 85 is faster! Failure IMO. This is like comparing a ford F-150 to a bmw, DUH the BMW is faster and smoother, it's a car, not a truck! __________________ MyFlickr Quote: Originally Posted by no dogs dragon man! Well if it is lyk raining the cannons are really good for that but nikon is like all black so maybe good for sniperz?

10-22-2009, 11:19 AM	#5
DScience TPF Junkie! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,182 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 19 Times in 18 Posts My Gallery: (0)	Well first off, this isn't the most accurate test. Simply the difference in aperture (1.2 vs 1.4) is going to have a profound affect on bokeh. Second, the focal length has a big influence as well. __________________ My 365 project! Flickr Nikon D300s Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikkor 105mm f/1.8 AI-S "It's not about what you see.....it's about how you see it."

10-22-2009, 11:27 AM	#6
shortpballer I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 550 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts My Gallery: (15)	Quote: Originally Posted by Sw1tchFX welll DUH there's going to be a difference, You shot with a 50mm and an 85! not to mention the 85 is faster! Failure IMO. This is like comparing a ford F-150 to a bmw, DUH the BMW is faster and smoother, it's a car, not a truck! First of all if you guys would look closely there is a HUGE difference, and it is due to the design of the lenses. The zeiss produces more choppy, film-like bokeh. And by the way they were both taken at 1.4 for comparison purposes __________________ Nikon D3X Nikon D2X 24-70 2.8G 70-200 2.8 VR II White Lightning X1600 times 4 cybersync setup with cybercommander new to photography but loving every minute my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vibrantportraits model mayhem: http://www.modelmayhem.com/vibrantportraits

10-22-2009, 11:13 AM	#2
ssnxp No longer a newbie, moving up! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: California Posts: 98 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts My Gallery: (0)	Thanks for the pictures; I personally like the 85mm 1.2L better.

10-22-2009, 11:37 AM	#7
syphlix I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 531 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts My Gallery: (0)	i think i like the second one better. what does "film bokeh" mean? __________________ Website - www.gregorytran.com Blog Flickr!

10-22-2009, 11:43 AM	#8
shortpballer I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 550 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts My Gallery: (15)	Quote: Originally Posted by syphlix i think i like the second one better. what does "film bokeh" mean? I would say it applies to the aperture blades, In film days lenses had less aperture blades, the bokeh comes out more choppy. With the 85 1.2 it is circular, so the bokeh will look very creamy. Thats what I would assume... lol! someone correct me if I'm wrong. I just wanted to show you guys the difference as I was amazed __________________ Nikon D3X Nikon D2X 24-70 2.8G 70-200 2.8 VR II White Lightning X1600 times 4 cybersync setup with cybercommander new to photography but loving every minute my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vibrantportraits model mayhem: http://www.modelmayhem.com/vibrantportraits

10-22-2009, 11:50 AM	#9
Dao TPF Junkie! Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,425 Thanked 47 Times in 44 Posts My Gallery: (0)	I think it will make more sense if you compare a 50mm lens to a 50mm lens.

10-22-2009, 11:54 AM	#10
shortpballer I spend too much of my life on TPF! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 550 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts My Gallery: (15)	Quote: Originally Posted by Dao I think it will make more sense if you compare a 50mm lens to a 50mm lens. well couldn't exactly do that, as I do not have a canon 50 at this moment. __________________ Nikon D3X Nikon D2X 24-70 2.8G 70-200 2.8 VR II White Lightning X1600 times 4 cybersync setup with cybercommander new to photography but loving every minute my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vibrantportraits model mayhem: http://www.modelmayhem.com/vibrantportraits

10-22-2009, 11:55 AM	#11
MrLogic Been spending a lot of time on here! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 226 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts My Gallery: (0)	The Cosina-made "Zeiss" lenses are not known for their creamy "bokeh," regardless of the different focal lengths used here. But yeah... this isn't the most accurate "test."

10-22-2009, 12:04 PM	#12
Derrel TPF Junkie! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA Posts: 2,658 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 275 Times in 244 Posts My Gallery: (7)	No surprises,really. There is no such thing as "film bokeh". The Zeiss brand of lenses has long been known to produce bokeh that is,well, often jarring. In recent years, and I mean very recent years, the term bokeh has come into vogue, and is widely misused. The term was first brought to the attention of the English-speaking world by Mike Johnston, a little over 12 years ago now. To many people bokeh means "out of focus specular highlights", which is only one aspect of bokeh; DScience loves making photos that have small, point sources of light in the background, but that is only the portion of bokeh known as the "specular highlight rendition". OOF specualr highlights are fun to shoot, and a lens that renders OOF specular highlights with a nice shape is fun to own and shoot. But specular highlight rendering is only one aspect of bokeh. To many people, bokeh means "an out of focus background". That is not what bokeh is. To many people, the more out of focus the background is, the more they think they have achieved "bokeh". Again, it's not a quantity thing--it's about the quality, the character, and the characteristics of the out of focus areas that a lens creates that makes up bokeh. Last night I was putting together a list of articles on bokeh from some sources that are accurate, and reasoned. Here it is. The Online Photographer: What Is Bokeh? Bokeh Test Bokeh in Pictures http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_1/1...hrankings5.pdf Mike Johnston's 2005 bokeh list in .pdf format, free download Bokeh: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article Silverbased \| Bokeh: What it is and isn’t Learning bokeh - Page 3 - Rangefinderforum.com Here is an example of a person with a very shallow understanding of bokeh, and who has developed a bunch of bokeh "textures", thinking that bokeh refers exclusively to out of focus specular highlights or out of focus lights. Still,it's interesting to see what one person's incomplete idea of bokeh is all about 155+ Free Grungy And Beautiful Bokeh Textures \| Little Box Of Ideas Last edited by Derrel; 10-22-2009 at 05:41 PM. Reason: edited a bunch of typos

10-22-2009, 05:24 PM	#13
Dwig TPF Junkie! Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Key West FL Posts: 1,065 My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit Thanked 72 Times in 70 Posts My Gallery: (10)	Quote: Originally Posted by shortpballer Quote: Originally Posted by syphlix i think i like the second one better. what does "film bokeh" mean? I would say it applies to the aperture blades, In film days lenses had less aperture blades, ... Balderdash. One, the number of blades has very, very, very little to do with the quality of bokeh. Two, the shape of the aperture has only a little to do with the quality of bokeh, Three, "in film days" lenses had easily as many and very often more blades than modern lenses. Check out this link that was posted in another bokeh thread here recently: http://www.rickdenney.com/bokeh_test.htm The biggest factors affecting the quality of bokeh lie in the optical design. The 50mm f/1.4 shows what I consider very poor bokeh. Small round highlights (there's one on the right side of the image) show a bright ring. This is cause by slight overcorrection of spherical aberration. The 85mm f/1.2 isn't fantastic, but is much better. It seems to show evidence of a very slight bright ring causing the blur to have too much of an edge (look at the edge of the white roof in the center; it doesn't feather out completely but stops suddenly). __________________ -------- Dwig happythursday.com Last edited by Dwig; 10-22-2009 at 05:29 PM.

10-22-2009, 05:32 PM	#14
newrmdmike TPF Junkie! Join Date: May 2006 Location: it varies. Posts: 2,085 My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts My Gallery: (0)	beer fail for sure.

10-22-2009, 05:57 PM	#15
musicaleCA TPF Junkie! Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 2,201 My Photos Are OK to Edit Thanked 85 Times in 81 Posts My Gallery: (0)	Thank you so much, Derrel and Dwig. The...misguided notions in this thread were giving me a headache. applauds __________________ Canon 7D, 450D, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 USM L, EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6, EF 50mm f/1.4, EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM, EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6, Speedlite 550EX, 2x 580EX II, ST-E2 - _S U P P O R T___ T H E___ P A C T_ - Flickr Model Mayhem ImageKind

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