Just a quick message for the beginners (and pros as well)

[kami]

we were all beginners.. as was i... but i didnt post my flower pics because i saw how many people posted flower pics... i waited until "I" was happy with my pictures, I didn't pull my d40 out of the box, take 5 pictures and then post them... I waitied months, practiced, studied, and learned, THEN when things were looking good to my eye, I went for the opinion of the masses

I'm doing the exact same thing!

I've had my D80 for 2 months now and have taken so many pictures. But all of them are nothing new to anyone.

The only one's who appreciate my pictures are friends and relatives who are mostly point-and-shooters.

No need for me to ask for critique from you guys until I have to.

[Ads]

[Senor Hound]

I'm doing the exact same thing!

I've had my D80 for 2 months now and have taken so many pictures. But all of them are nothing new to anyone.

The only one's who appreciate my pictures are friends and relatives who are mostly point-and-shooters.

No need for me to ask for critique from you guys until I have to.

I don't know about you, but when I first posted stuff on here, I was making obvious mistakes I didn't know about. The people on here gave me some very general advice, along with some composition links, and I can honestly say that posting from the get go of knowing about this place has helped me mature more quickly.

I'm not saying you should post, but there's no reason to feel like you're not good enough to do so yet. Just remember that. And if you have a photo that just doesn't seem to jive for you, you should definitely post it on here without thinking twice about it. Where else could you get so many opinions for free? Plus, you recognize certain names after a while, and you learn to trust them. There are a few people who I will take the advice of no matter what, cause I've seen their work and would love to be half the photographer they are. I'll admit that sometimes I question the validity of certain critics (especially the arrogant and overly straight forward ones), but for the most part its all great advice. The only bad advice I got was when someone told me I'd be better off junking my photos, but as I said before, that was a very rare occurrence.

Once again, do what you want, but it hurts me to think you don't feel worthy enough to post yet. If that is indeed the case, please stop being so hard on yourself.

[rubbertree]

I've seen so many posts like the one started here recently.
Getting upset and directly asking people like this to C&C is not going to make it happen. Like mentioned, there have been numerous posts lately about why people don't.

[~Stella~]

I've seen so many posts like the one started here recently.
Getting upset and directly asking people like this to C&C is not going to make it happen. Like mentioned, there have been numerous posts lately about why people don't.

I didn't see this as getting upset and whining about not getting replies so much as encouraging newbies to get involved and put in as much as they get out of the forum, which I took as a much more positive, cheerleading, sort of post.

[(Ghastly) Krueger]

You know this fable about an old man, a boy and a donkey on the road?

First The boy is riding the donkey and the old man is walking. Someone looks at them and says "that boy! All comfy travelling on the donkey while the old man has to walk"
So they switch places and the old man rides the donky. Someone else now comments "That man is mean, making the boy walk while he rides on the donkey!"
Now both get on the donkey for a while and a PETA guy looks at them and says "that's cruel on the donkey... too much weight!"
Tired of peoples comments, both get off the donkey and walk. Some teen sees them and says "dude u r stoopids, u have a donkey and don't ride it!!!11!1 lol"

It seems to me we are running in the same direction... and we are currently not riding the donkey.

Some say they are tired of answering the same questions and giving very basic advice to beginers.
Some say beginers should not be givingadvice because they are not qualified.
Some complain about "great pic" posts
Some complain because no one is helping.

I say STFU.
If a beginner wants to post his first pictures, so what? If the avatars of photohood are too high to give him some pointers, maybe the ones in the middle or other beginners can work together wiht him
If someone says "nice pic" or "this suckz" well, there you go, now you now someones opinion on it. Doesn't help you improve? Sure does, at least you know which images are generally liked or disliked. Isn't that an essential part of art? How the receiver percives the piece? And not just "experts" art is for everyone, IMO.
If someone takes time to tell you how (ITO) the image can be improved, well, that is the greatest.

[(Ghastly) Krueger]

I know that I use this analogy a lot, but we all want to be NASCAR drivers, but some of us are having issues knowing the difference between a steering wheel and a clutch.

The basics are the basics are the basics. The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE. We ALL should know them. The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other places.

Once you have the basics down, you are at least SEMI ready to accept info on CC well enough to understand what is being critiqued and how to improve based on the C&C.

How's that?

Well, my dad didn't just hand me the keys to his car and the user's manual and let me go downtown by miself to learn the basics
A lot of stuff (even basic) cannot be learned from manuals.

[JerryPH]

Well, my dad didn't just hand me the keys to his car and the user's manual and let me go downtown by miself to learn the basics
A lot of stuff (even basic) cannot be learned from manuals.

No difference here either. I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.

[~Stella~]

You know this fable about an old man, a boy and a donkey on the road?

First The boy is riding the donkey and the old man is walking. Someone looks at them and says "that boy! All comfy travelling on the donkey while the old man has to walk"
So they switch places and the old man rides the donky. Someone else now comments "That man is mean, making the boy walk while he rides on the donkey!"
Now both get on the donkey for a while and a PETA guy looks at them and says "that's cruel on the donkey... too much weight!"
Tired of peoples comments, both get off the donkey and walk. Some teen sees them and says "dude u r stoopids, u have a donkey and don't ride it!!!11!1 lol"

It seems to me we are running in the same direction... and we are currently not riding the donkey.

Some say they are tired of answering the same questions and giving very basic advice to beginers.
Some say beginers should not be givingadvice because they are not qualified.
Some complain about "great pic" posts
Some complain because no one is helping.

I say STFU.
If a beginner wants to post his first pictures, so what? If the avatars of photohood are too high to give him some pointers, maybe the ones in the middle or other beginners can work together wiht him
If someone says "nice pic" or "this suckz" well, there you go, now you now someones opinion on it. Doesn't help you improve? Sure does, at least you know which images are generally liked or disliked. Isn't that an essential part of art? How the receiver percives the piece? And not just "experts" art is for everyone, IMO.
If someone takes time to tell you how (ITO) the image can be improved, well, that is the greatest.

[(Ghastly) Krueger]

No difference here either. I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.

My point was... the initial practice wasn't done by myself, and the theory from the handbook was not enough.

For example, I used to make the stupid mistake of engaging the starter with the engine already running. I knew I shouldn't do it and every time I did it I cringed at the noise the engine made... but I just kept doing it. My dad said: "don't you hear the engine running?" (there was no tachometer in that car)... and I honestly didn't. So he said: "you are holding the steering wheel all the time... can you feel the engine running through it?" That broke my routine and forced me to stop and feel before starting the engine. All the way to the basic... but found in no manual, I needed someone's input to make the correction.

[kami]

I don't know about you, but when I first posted stuff on here, I was making obvious mistakes I didn't know about. The people on here gave me some very general advice, along with some composition links, and I can honestly say that posting from the get go of knowing about this place has helped me mature more quickly.

Once again, do what you want, but it hurts me to think you don't feel worthy enough to post yet. If that is indeed the case, please stop being so hard on yourself.

I think the original intent of this thread has been twisted a little.

I don't feel the need to post pictures for C&C since I do a lot of research on my own and read the C&C of other members regarding other people's work. I look at others work and read how they acheived it. By doing my own research I learn and experiment.

IMHO, I really feel that people should at least do their homework first before asking for C&C. Learn the basics...aperture, shutter speed, ISO, lighting, DOF, bokeh, vignetting, read the camera's manual, familiarize yourself with your equipment, etc...

I feel it's pointless to explain to someone to adjust the ISO a little when he/she has no idea what you're talking about.

If I do feel the need to post a pic for C&C, I sure will. I have nothing against people taking their first shots after buying a SLR camera and asking for C&C. I'm a beginner and I actually read a lot of other's C&C on 2 other photography forums as well as this one.

But when people complain and gripe about others not giving them any attention, that's another story.

[PhotoDonkey]

I think the original content of this thread has been twisted a little.

I don't feel the need to post pictures for C&C since I do a lot of research on my own and read the C&C of other members regarding other people's work. I look at others work and read how they acheived it. By doing my own research I learn and experiment.

IMHO, I really feel that people should at least do their homework first before asking for C&C. Learn the basics...aperture, shutter speed, ISO, lighting, DOF, bokeh, vignetting, read the camera's manual, familiarize yourself with your equipment, etc...

If I do feel the need to post a pic for C&C, I sure will. I have nothing against people taking their first shots after buying a SLR camera and asking for C&C. I'm a beginner and I actually read a lot of other's C&C on 2 other photography forums as well as this one.

But when people complain and gripe about others not giving them any attention, that's another story.

Generally, I'm happy with any advice I get. But, then, I've actually done a little homework, read my camera's manual etc. I may not have ALL of the basics mastered, but I have a pretty good understanding of how alot of it works. Like I said before, if I take a photo of something that I'm especially happy with, I'll post it so I can get an unbiased opinion of the shot and find out what I'm still not doing right.

That said, griping in general annoys me. It ain't hurting me if someone doesn't comment on my picture. And it ain't hurting me if someone posts their first five pictures out of their camera, regardless of how much "homework" they've done.

[JerryPH]

All the way to the basic... but found in no manual, I needed someone's input to make the correction.

Well, then some poeple are just made to drive automatics, I suppose, but you cannot blame your inattention to inability... its not the same.

If you cannot see the forest becuase of the trees... once you hit your nose a few times running around, the average person will learn to slow down and walk in such a manner that they will not bump their noses, or if they do, they've learned to walk slower so they don't beak it.

You are telling me that you are not like this and have no ability to process the obvious and will keep repeating obvious errors over without change until someone holds your hand and guides you to another process.

I would not call this action normal. If you are telling me that you cannot learn from your own mistakes... you will ALWAYS need someone to hold your hand... forever. You will NEVER be able to grow on your own beyond what someone places square into your hand.

Is this what you are telling me? If not... then all you have said goes against what you say and supports my convictions. If you tell me that this is so, then, I will say that 99% of the people are not like this, and still would be correct where it concerns the majority of people.

Most people have the skill to learn from their mistakes. I am an IT trainer, this is what I do to put bread on my table and see this EVERYDAY that I work. Whether they choose to do so, or look for the easy way out... well thats another subject.

For me, in everything that I do, I rarely do perfect the first time... and mistakes are the greatest teachers possible and help me to attain my goals or get as close to them as is possible under the circumstances. Actually... I believe that everyone has this same skill. It is just a matter of one simple choice to use it... or not.

[Overread]

Thing is Jerry - sometimes people don't know that they are bumping their noses against a tree to know to stop (here the analagy breaks).
My point is that sometimes you just don't know (especially at the start) things - like a newborn baby - you have to learn by both trial and error and by people showing you the way. There is no weakness in admitting that you need to be shown.
Further some can be shown by a book - some by trial and error and others need that communication (be it from words of mouth or words on a screen) to make the connections.

[PhotoDonkey]

Perhaps the best argument I can give for someone to ask for critique of their work is, in some cases, it's the only way they're going to get an honest opinion about the photos they took. I can take an underexposed picture I took that I think looks great, show it to my wife and she'll think it's great.

As a novice, it can be difficult to take a step back from your work and view it with a critical eye. Having your work critiqued by someone who knows a little more about the art than you do can make that chore a little easier. At some point you can hit a wall and not realize that the pictures you're taking aren't composed well.

I wouldn't call that hand-holding. I call it having an open mind and being willing to listen to an unbiased opinion.

That said, it's still incumbent upon each of us to take control of our own destiny and actually learn something. If someone's continually asking for input and they're getting the same advice, then, yes, they are asking to have their hand held. Because they obviously haven't applied any of the lessons they've learned from previous entries. I've learned a bit about my own photography just by reading the critiques of other peoples' work.

[AndrewG]

No difference here either. I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.

I learned to ride a horse from a book; when I eventually got on a horse I had to learn all over again.
A manual can teach the mechanics; the art is within you.