35mm sized sensor?

[fmw]

I was under the impression from reading here on the forums that the high end Canon DLSR's had a full 35mm sized sensor. I read elsewhere that it has a "crop factor" of 1.3 which would be somewhere between the Nikon at 1.5 and a true 35mm frame at 1.0.

Learning this is like a knife in the heart. No, I don't really care about pixels. No, I'm not planning to buy a Canon but I watch the competition between the two companies and I know that, if Canon has it Nikon will have it and vice versa. I'm a wide angle shooter and I'm really disappointed in the digital WA zoom lenses. Apparently the only full 35mm sized sensor was on the Kodak in the early 90's?

[Ads]

[Don Simon]

Canon's website says the 5D's sensor is 35.8 x 23.9mm... doesn't sound like a 1.3x crop factor to me... although the EOS-1D Mark II N apparently has that crop factor, but the EOS-1D Mark II does not. In other words the model designed primarily for fast continuous shooting has the smaller sensor with 1.3x crop factor; others have the full-frame 36x24mm sensor.

[TBaraki]

..or were you referring to the 1D?

[Don Simon]

Oh, the original 1D has a 1.3x crop factor too, but I assumed the question was about the current models. Understandable how one could get confused between models though. One day camera manufacturers will work out a better way of naming their products, and on that day the world will rejoice.

[fmw]

That's great news. That forces Nikon to compete. I can't wait for my new Nikon D3x. If only I hadn't sold those 14, 18 and 24mm f2.8 wide angles.

[JIP]

so someone here recently dropped what probably is just a rumor about a full frame sensor Nikon does anyone know if there is any truth to this? or is it just a rumor.

[fmw]

so someone here recently dropped what probably is just a rumor about a full frame sensor Nikon does anyone know if there is any truth to this? or is it just a rumor.

I don't know anything. But I would be truly astounded if Nikon's next top line camera didn't have a 35mm sensor. I don't think they have a choice.

[Peanuts]

I was just hearing a few photography oriented individuals who are rather up to date on the going ons of the larger manufacturers discussing this. Apparently Nikon has stood firm on saying they will not bring out a full frame sensor - but I can assure you that they are loosing business on that, and I wouldn't be surprised if they changed their mind. I believe the main reason why they haven't is because Nikon strongly tries to stand firm with not 'changing over' systems such as Canon did (was that in the 70s or 80s when they went from F to EF?) If Nikon brought out a full frame, that would mean their DX lenses would be useless (apparently, please correct me if I am wrong. This is all what I thought I heard)

[Jeremy Z]

Aside from cost, there are no disadvantages to a full frame sensor. Especially with all the Nikon 35mm lenses that have been out for the past 50 years ago. I agree with Fred. Nikon has to have one.

Canon is relentless at developing technology. They will slowly figure out how to make the full frame sensors cheaper and cheaper, until the smaller sensors are gradually phased out. Nikon will (have) watch in every comparative review, as Canon whups their collective butts, or do what they have to do.

I bet than in another 5 years, full frame will be the norm again, and these small sensors we have today will be a bad dream, like the Kodak Disc.

[Iron Flatline]

Canon has full-frame sensors on some of their models, as is correctly noted by several members in this thread. Canon makes their own sensors. Altough a lot of companies have said that full-size sensors are not needed, it is assumed that they are working on them. It is inconceivable that they would discard 40+ years of 35mm work, and the research that went into perfecting lenses that fit in front of those film frames. Canon will probably begin pushing full-size prices down as soon as they think that competitors are going to offer such a sensor.

[fmw]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the image sensor size is as important as people like to think it is in terms of image quality. I'm sure technology will provide even better image quality with smaller sizes (for whatever reason) if that is what to do in the future. That isn't the issue. The wide angle lens thing is the issue and Nikon certainly hasn't stopped making wide angle lenses even though they have stopped making 35mm cameras.

Peanuts, I know how Nikon hates change as strongly as Canon embraces it. But recently they have been making all kinds of incompatible products. G lenses don't have aperture rings and won't work on the FM2 which was just discontinued this month. The new D40 wants AF-S motors on the lenses since it lacks a focusing motor in-body. My D80 needs a CPU lens to boot so I can't use pre AF lenses with it.

Just a handful of years ago, you had to search far and wide to find a combination of Nikon and Nikkor that weren't compatible with one another. Not so today.

I would bet they have changed their mind. I don't doubt they consider it unimportant product-wise to have a 35mm sensor. But peoples' perceptions are what they are and the wide angle lens issue is very real and would have kept me from buying another Nikon after 40 years as a Nikon shooter, if I had known there would be an alternative when I went digital in the first place. They have to compete and I think they will.

I would bet the cost of the sensor is not the issue. You can get little 10mp sensors on point and shoot cameras that lead me to believe a sensor can't cost the manufacturer more than $10 or so. I would bet Nikon is actually trying to make camera systems smaller than they were in the 35mm days. Whether that is true or even a good idea is way beyong me but it just "feels" that way to me.

Let me give you an example. When I bought my D50, I bought a cheap little Chinese 55-200 Nikkor lens to go with it. It turned out to be a poor lens and I later replaced it with the 70-200 f2.8. The difference in size and weight between these two lenses is breathtaking and much of the difference is due to the size of the required image circle. Yes the cheap one is slow etc.etc. but the difference is really remarkable. If I could get a good quality telephoto zoom close to the size and weight of the cheapie, I would jump on it. Making cameras smaller helps.

If Nikon is going to stick to their guns on the sensor size, then it is time for them to realease some high quality wide angle lenses for the small sensor. Otherwise, let's get the D3 rolling.

[Alex_B]

As correctly stated, with Canon there is full frame, 1.3 crop and 1.6 crop

35mm full frame:
Canon 1Ds Mark II
Canon 5D

1.3 crop:
Canon 1D Mark II N

1.6 crop:
all the rest

correct me if I am wrong



I wonder, is Nikon still on CCD sensors? With these it is apparently much more expensive and complicated to get to larger sensors (hence the expensive medium format digital backs based on CCDs)

The CMOS sensors Canon uses are more easily produced in larger sizes, also they consume much less power.

[Digital Matt]

As correctly stated, with Canon there is full frame, 1.3 crop and 1.6 crop

35mm full frame:
Canon 1Ds Mark II
Canon 5D

1.3 crop:
Canon 1D Mark II N

1.6 crop:
all the rest

correct me if I am wrong

You forgot a couple.

The original Canon 1Ds (11mp) has a full frame sensor. You can probably still buy them used, so it is a viable option.

Also the original Canon 1D, and the Canon 1DmkII (not N) have a 1.3x sensor.

[Alex_B]

You forgot a couple.

The original Canon 1Ds (11mp) has a full frame sensor. You can probably still buy them used, so it is a viable option.

Also the original Canon 1D, and the Canon 1DmkII (not N) have a 1.3x sensor.

darn, yes, you are right, i concentrated on the recent ones !

thanks for correcting!

[ksmattfish]

so someone here recently dropped what probably is just a rumor about a full frame sensor Nikon does anyone know if there is any truth to this? or is it just a rumor.

It is a rumor that's going around photo.net. Some folks claim that the amount of new full frame lenses that Nikon is putting out suggests that there may be a full frame Nikon DSLR in the works.

EDIT: A quick Google search shows that variations of this rumor have been around for 4 or 5 years now, so it sounds like it's wishful thinking from some die hard Nikonians.