A little honesty

dvduval · Nov 3, 2007

As a newer user, one problem I found when trying to visit some of the photo areas was there was no simple way to see which photos were more popular, or which were submitted by "esteemed" photographers. When clicking on threads its somewhat "hit or miss" what you are going to find.

zendianah · Nov 3, 2007

This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera" on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals. Just because you have money to buy a nice camera does not make you a professional nor give you the right to criticize others on something you know little about.

HMMMM... What makes a professional a professional?

Once upon a time I did not have 3 kids.. In my old life I went to Art school in NYC and took some photography classes. (FILM)... Hated it. I loved photoshop and I hated scanning pictures to play in PS. Digital came along and WOW... I had a kid.. OH my goodness I bought a digital camera then became MOM with a camera... 2 more came.. Then I became mom with a NICER camera... Does that make me less of a photographer? When you have kids.. THAT will make you a Mom with a Camera!! Regardless of your old life without kids,.

I'm sorry I HATE that narrow minded term. If you chose to be in a FREE forum then you will be surrounded by 15 year old kids that LOVE photography and may even get paid.-- OH wait and yea.. MOMS with a camera........So lets throw it all out there.. How about Gays with a camera... and lets attack Straights with a camera.. Buddhistswith a camera??? Christians with a Camera??? How about me?? Puerto Rican Buddist MOM that went to art school with a CAMERA?????

Should I not post ???I paid my dues and I have earned my right to post in the pro section.. Whether I am gay, christian, buddhist, a mom , purple or brown..... I will NOT stop posting in the pro section just because I am a mother. One day you may be asking me for advice.

Chris of Arabia · Nov 3, 2007

People who got out on the wrong side of the bed with a camera?

Universal Polymath · Nov 3, 2007

zendianah said:
Post

Wow, what a post!

But Zendianah, I don't think Allsmiles was implying that all photographers that happen to be mothers are inherently made less of a photographer as a result. Just like gay photographers, Buddhist photographers and Puerto Rican photographers are no less valid based on those distinctions.

By "moms with a camera" posting in the business section, she was refering to the amateur photographers that post snapshot after snapshot of their children, with the focus being more on showing off their cute kid than actually gaining insight into their photography. Yes, you are a mother, but you are not guilty of this in any way. I've seen your wedding posts, and your stuff is great! Of course you earned the right to post in the professional section, no doubt about it. But you earned that right because you wanted the right - You practiced and practiced and perfected your craft. The problem that Allsmiles is refering to is the posters that haven't done this, seem to have no interest in doing this, and therefore have not earned the right to post there.

The whole "mother" thing was just an example of a type of poster looking for "awwwe"s and "how cute"s before actual insight into their work - Which is the wrong reason to post. Whether or not one is a mother, though, is far from the main issue.

zendianah · Nov 3, 2007

Universal Polymath said:
Wow, what a post!

But Zendianah, I don't think Allsmiles was implying that all photographers that happen to be mothers are inherently made less of a photographer as a result. Just like gay photographers, Buddhist photographers and Puerto Rican photographers are no less valid based on those distinctions.

By "moms with a camera" posting in the business section, she was refering to the amateur photographers that post snapshot after snapshot of their children, with the focus being more on showing off their cute kid than actually gaining insight on their photography. Yes, you are a mother, but you are not guilty of this in any way. I've seen your wedding posts, and your stuff is great! Of course you earned the right to post in the professional section, no doubt about it. But you earned that right because you wanted the right - You practiced and practiced and perfected your craft. The problem that Allsmiles is refering to is the posters that haven't done this, seem to have no interest in doing this, and therefore have not earned the right to post there.

The whole "mother" thing was just an example of a type of poster looking for "awwwe"s and "how cute"s before actual insight into their work. Whether or not one is a mother, though, is far from the main issue.

I do agree with you in regards to snap shots.. But how do we know that the person that posted that "snapshot" doesnt think that it is her best work? She may not know that it is a snapshot. Should that keep her from not posting? I posted some CRAP when I first posted... I didnt know it was crap. I thought is was ok. I learned and I am still contiually learning. I posted in the general gallery... wait.. once I posted in the critque section.. and got my ass handed to me.. It was funny. BUT i learned.

I do feel insulted... and maybe because I am a mom with a camera. Thank you for saying my weddings and kids photos are good. I think they are ok.. I am contiually learning and appreciate the help that the "beginners, pros and everyone gives me".. and the "moms" ..

Universal Polymath · Nov 3, 2007

zendianah said:
I do agree with you in regards to snap shots.. But how do we know that the person that posted that "snapshot" doesnt think that it is her best work? She may not know that it is a snapshot. Should that keep her from not posting? I posted some CRAP when I first posted... I didnt know it was crap. I thought is was ok. I learned and I am still contiually learning. I posted in the general gallery... wait.. once I posted in the critque section.. and got my ass handed to me.. It was funny. BUT i learned.

I do feel insulted... and maybe because I am a mom with a camera. Thank you for saying my weddings and kids photos are good. I think they are ok.. I am contiually learning and appreciate the help that the "beginners, pros and everyone gives me".. and the "moms" ..

Just for the record, I was merely summarizing, to the best of my understanding, Allsmiles' stance. I didn't, however, say I entirely agreed with her.

Above, I said:

If we're dealing with someone who - while their pictures may not yet be any technically better than that mother's snapshots - is really, truly trying to become proficient and skilled as a photographer, I wouldn't mind them posting in the professional gallery. I'd just hope that the response they received would be constructive, and that they'd actually learn something for next time ...If you are a seasoned pro and you come across someone that is not yet so talented why not offer up a few tips? I'm sure it's incredibly intimidating for some beginners to post their work here (I know it was really hard for me to post my first pictures - What a nerve-racking experience!). If, after my first post, I had someone simply tell me to take a class, and not to come back until I knew what I was doing, I would probably never post again, either in the pro forum or anywhere else. Keeping this in mind, I'd never say anything like that to anyone else; I'd first want to commend their effort and then try to help them in any way I could. I'm just not about isolating others, making them feel like they don't belong, or driving them off the forums.

Sound okay?

jols · Nov 3, 2007

phew! took me a while to read all that.

hers my two bobs worth if anyones interested.

im a MUM and i take take photos of my son and i wont be stopping

i get paid for my portraits/weddings so i can post in the business section if i want to.

i may post a few of my son in that section to get some comments if im trying something new out. and i wont be stopping that either.

and lastly just because someone is being paid for there work anybody can comment on it if its an open forum.

someone may of been paid a thousand for one photo but if someone else comments that its blurry or not sharp enough that is thier opinion.

if you are sensitive to comments i suggest you just do not post.

cause beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Allsmiles7282 · Nov 3, 2007

zendianah said:
I'm sorry I HATE that narrow minded term. If you chose to be in a FREE forum then you will be surrounded by 15 year old kids that LOVE photography and may even get paid.-- OH wait and yea.. MOMS with a camera........So lets throw it all out there.. How about Gays with a camera... and lets attack Straights with a camera.. Buddhistswith a camera??? Christians with a Camera??? How about me?? Puerto Rican Buddist MOM that went to art school with a CAMERA?????

This post to me shows complete ignorance and is why this forum is completely held back. i have said my .02 and will now join the ranks of other serious photographers that have left this board. goodbye.

zendianah · Nov 3, 2007

Universal Polymath said:
Just for the record, I was merely summarizing, to the best of my understanding, Allsmiles' stance. I didn't, however, say I entirely agreed with her.

Above, I said:

If we're dealing with someone who - while their pictures may not yet be any technically better than that mother's snapshots - is really, truly trying to become proficient and skilled as a photographer, I wouldn't mind them posting in the professional gallery. I'd just hope that the response they received would be constructive, and that they'd actually learn something for next time ...If you are a seasoned pro and you come across someone that is not yet so talented why not offer up a few tips? I'm sure it's incredibly intimidating for some beginners to post their work here (I know it was really hard for me to post my first pictures - What a nerve-racking experience!). If, after my first post, I had someone simply tell me to take a class, and not to come back until I knew what I was doing, I would probably never post again, either in the pro forum or anywhere else. Keeping this in mind, I'd never say anything like that to anyone else; I'd first want to commend their effort and then try to help them in any way I could. I'm just not about isolating others, making them feel like they don't belong, or driving them off the forums.

Sound okay?

Hey there..

What you said I understood completely the first time. That was well put the second time also.

I am not mad at anyone .. I wanted to state my opinion. Just because a statement.. "not yours" insults me.. Doesnt make me angry at that person. Thats their problem and opinion not mine.

I of course being a gemini needs to throw her 2 cents in.. Oh .. and Im also PMSing.. ha ha and as Chris of Arabia stated .. " Today" I am a photographer who woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Gotta love that !

jols · Nov 3, 2007

its the ignorance in the first post that started this thread thats what sad about this forum.

i really like it here and value peoples opinions and help.

sometimes pic comes up and i think its great or rubbish but if i reply to the thread i think i am supportive.

i dont like negative vibes and as another saying goes '' if you cant say anything nice done say anything at all''

you can be negative about a pic but always end on a cheery note.

LaFoto · Nov 3, 2007

Well, I understand that "Moms with a camera" is a term, albeit far, far, far from being a politically correct one (!!!), and does not really mean "mothers" who "own and use their cameras". For if that were the case and if I were to understand the term in that sense, I would need to feel offended by it, as well! For I have a camera, and have children, and take photos - of late even of weddings and other things, on commission, getting paid.

HOWEVER - I still rarely feel like it is for me to post in the Professional Wedding and Portrait Forum. I go to People and Pets. That is where I feel my photos of people (those rare ones that I feel like showing - it often is a matter of release why you never get to see any of my people photos) should go. We HAVE a forum for the lovely photos of cute little children (or pretty bigger children). It's not that it weren't there.

We even have a further distinction. There also is the Snapshots and Blooper Forum. And WHAT IS WRONG in posting your snapshot there? Feeling like "Snapshots and Bloopers" is like posting into a garbage can totally underestimates the real and true VALUE of a snapshot! And they HAVE a value, a right to exist, and may even be really good! Just not made "professionally" or with intentions to be creating "art" or so! Just spur-of-the-moment photo ops that you took advantage of.

So there ... this discussion is actually mute.
There are forums for everybody.

And it is up to everyone to define themselves!
And whoever feels like posting their photos into the Professional Weddings and Portraits Forum should also be willing to live with harsh critique, just as if they were posting to General Critical Analysis. For they present their work to (fellow?)-pros. That is the idea. And that idea should be followed.

bellacat · Nov 3, 2007

Allsmiles I can totally understand where you are coming from and while I don't have the experience you have I understand what your frustration must be. At the same time I also appreciate any and all advice the seasoned pros give in this section. I have learned so much just by asking the right questions. While I have had clients LOVE the shots they have paid me to take I know they can be some much better and with time they will be.

Having my own photog biz is something new for me but so far I have had happy clients. I want to learn as much as I can and the more i read the comments and questions others have posted the more I know what to ask and look for with my own photos. I do have a art related degree and have taken photography in school but does that qualify my to stand with the pros? No not yet. Why? I am just not as good as those who have been working at this for many years. Does this mean I can not learn from you all and am not willing to learn? No I want to and that is why I am here. I'm sure there are photogs here who would rather see me not post at all and i can understand that. But for the most part this forum has offered a wealth of information in just a couple months and I learn something new everyday and then apply it to my sessions.

I have posted in the past in the other gallery forums especially when I have specific questions but have posted a couple times here as well. Will i post a photo of my kid or a friends kid because I thought it was cute...NO. Might I post a few photos from a recent paid session that I thought came out particularly well but would love to get feed back from the Pros. Yes I would.

Maybe we need a forum where we can post our photos and get reviews and feed back from pros. I don't think my photos are great and never said they were. I am still learning and appreciate all the feed back anyone has given to me and hope to show to you all that my photos will improve the more i work on them.

Hertz van Rental · Nov 3, 2007

A 'professional' is someone who does it for a living - that is, that's how they make their money.
An 'amateur' is someone who does it for fun or as a hobby and makes little or no money out of it.
A 'semi-professional' is someone who works at it part-time - it is not their main source of income.

Those are the strict definitions. Whichever one you are then that is what you are called. You may not like it or you may disagree with it but that is your problem.

All that said, I've known professionals who were cr*p and I've known amateurs who were damn near geniuses. Your status in this game bears no relation to your abilities.
It's worth remembering that.
To look down on people because they are classed as amateurs, or to hold in awe people classed as professionals is pure folly. Each is capable of giving good or bad advice and their status is no indication of which it will be.
If you post pictures then you are giving people permission to make comments on them - and people have the right to make whatever comments they like. You are just as likely to get cr*p advice as good. The trick is for you to decide which is which. If you don't like what someone says about your work then ignore it. At the end of the day it is all just personal opinion so only you can decide if it is of any use to you.