A little honesty

[zendianah]

Well, I understand that "Moms with a camera" is a term, albeit far, far, far from being a politically correct one (!!!), and does not really mean "mothers" who "own and use their cameras". For if that were the case and if I were to understand the term in that sense, I would need to feel offended by it, as well! For I have a camera, and have children, and take photos - of late even of weddings and other things, on commission, getting paid.

HOWEVER - I still rarely feel like it is for me to post in the Professional Wedding and Portrait Forum. I go to People and Pets. That is where I feel my photos of people (those rare ones that I feel like showing - it often is a matter of release why you never get to see any of my people photos) should go. We HAVE a forum for the lovely photos of cute little children (or pretty bigger children). It's not that it weren't there.

We even have a further distinction. There also is the Snapshots and Blooper Forum. And WHAT IS WRONG in posting your snapshot there? Feeling like "Snapshots and Bloopers" is like posting into a garbage can totally underestimates the real and true VALUE of a snapshot! And they HAVE a value, a right to exist, and may even be really good! Just not made "professionally" or with intentions to be creating "art" or so! Just spur-of-the-moment photo ops that you took advantage of.

So there ... this discussion is actually mute.
There are forums for everybody.

And it is up to everyone to define themselves!
And whoever feels like posting their photos into the Professional Weddings and Portraits Forum should also be willing to live with harsh critique, just as if they were posting to General Critical Analysis. For they present their work to (fellow?)-pros. That is the idea. And that idea should be followed.

Well put !

 

[Mike Jordan]

Why would anyone care if someone is a member for a long time and never posts? I've been on sites that have hundreds of members that have been members for years and never posted anything, yet regularly visit the site to read the other posts. That's their right of course. But then I always look at it that if someone is just a reader and not a contributor, then they don't really have a right to complain about the direction that the forum is going, do they? After all, it's the people that particapate, that give their time and posts that make a forum what it is.

The owner and moderators can control the direction a forum goes in, but unless they do, it's really up to those that particapate to give a forum it's direction.

So AllSmiles, you have rarely posted in the last couple of years, yet you don't like the direction that this section has gone in and you are complaining about it. So when it comes down to it, who's fault is it? Those that have posted the way you don't like or those that haven't posted and tried to steer it in a different direction?

To me, The Photo Forum is not a serious learning forum at all. It's more a social forum. There are too many people on here that are not interested in learning. At least not seriously interested. They want to get better and they want to share their images, but aren't really interested in taking it much further. Which is ok, there are a lot of forums like that and there is nothing wrong with them. But as for really learning photography, especially the business side of photography, you will find some of that here, but there are other forums that are better suited towards this. But you will have to look and do a lot of careful evaluation. As the saying goes, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. It's that way with photo forums as well.

Mike

 

[Hertz van Rental]

it's the people that particapate, that give their time and posts that make a forum what it is.

So as one of the top five posters on this Forum I think it only fair that you blame me if it's cr*ap :lmao:

 

[jols]

would nt dare.

you look creepy

and your last post had 666 on the end of it


:mrgreen::mrgreen:

 

[wildmaven]

LOL, the term "semi-professional" sounds like you're only half serious. I much more prefer the term "part time professional".

 

[Joxby]

This post to me shows complete ignorance and is why this forum is completely held back. i have said my .02 and will now join the ranks of other serious photographers that have left this board. goodbye.

This post shows complete arrogance and is why this forum is completely held back.
There is a serious beef in "professional" ranks towards "amateurs".
This type of attitude is symptomatic, of an underlying current that flows through some professionals, and its all about money.
Simple economics dictate, the more good photographers there are, the harder "professionals" have to work to earn their crust.
Its not in their interests, looking at the big picture, to help anyone become good enough to take their work away.
I know many pro's with this chip on their shoulder, they want a closed club, a monopoly, to protect their interests.
Allsmiles suggestions hold some merit in the context he/she speaks, but, if protecting ones interests were not an issue, (I dont feel a few snapshots in the wrong forum is the no1 contributing factor) I feel his/her post would never have been made.
With the advent of cheap digital photography, comes added econmic pressure to those who's photography puts bread on the table.
This forum appears to be a place to learn, from day 1 to day 1000001, trying to form a closed shop of critique, defined by...what...whether you get paid or not ? feels......against the spirit and ideals of the free forum concept..

 

[jols]

did nt think of that so part time pro it is.

oh heck shall i just say pro..................................better not would upset some people thats the premier togs around here.

 

[Joxby]

and furthermore.....I'm outstanding at killing threads


No....really, this "serious" thing, wealth is relative if we're talking money, when an amateur whos saved money for any length of time, is made to hand it over to the photo shopkeeper in a big ole wad.
For that particular moment in time, I garrentee they are the single most "serious" living cluster of carbon cells..on Earth.
for that moment..

 

[Mike Jordan]

So as one of the top five posters on this Forum I think it only fair that you blame me if it's cr*ap :lmao:

Well, now that you mention it...

Naw, I think it was a team effort. You don't get to take all the credit.



Seriously though, if you look at the statistics, you will find that for any forum, there are just a handful (usually less than 25 or so) that post 80% of the time. A bunch that post 15% of the time and a even larger group that post maybe 4%. Then you have all of those that only post 1% of the time or never post at all. With so few doing so much of the posting, it's only a given that the main posters are going to set the tone and thyme of any given forum or area within a forum.

I don't know if anyone has looked at the statistics for this forum, but sometimes the numbers will surprise you when you look at them as a whole.

Mike

 

[Artograph]

Wow.....Did some non-professional, mom-with-a-camera crap in your cereal this morning?

Poop poop!!!!!!!

 

[dtlasky]

I know exactly how you feel about the subject, i no pro and i don't consider myself to be or carry myself like one. Do you feel that if I was trying starting a business like I am trying to do, that this would be a good place to find out? I dont want to get in the way of people who use this forum in order to communicate with professionals.

I myself would never consider disrespecting someone who is more skilled on the subject, but on the other hand it really pisses me off when I see a mother at a highschool football game with a d200 and a 2.8 lens, SHOOTING IN FREAKING AUTOMATIC. Yesterday was senior night at my school so I was there taking pictures (for the yearbook) and i had a lady with the forementioned setup ask me if i got better pictures at night with my flash (sb-600). I responed with "What the hell do you think." That type of stuff really grinds my gears, if you know what I mean.

 

[Chas]

Pros, if you really want a "professional forum" then take the gloves off, so-to-speak and critique photos as professional shots...in detail with higher expectations for quality. Jump in and don't let comments pass that are totally "ignorant" of basic photography. Suggest that some posters should be moving their work to another gallery.
skieur

I very much agree with this. I am an amateur, and only read posts in this (pro) forum occasionally in hopes of learning something from you types with a deal of accumulated knowledge and experience. I'm not expecting pearls of wisdom throughout, but it ought to be worth spending the time. What I would hope to see would be some really tough discussion, "egos left at the door", about the qualities and deficiencies of the work displayed. I am a scientist, and when I present my work at a convention, or even at an internal department meeting, I expect my work to be thoroughly analyzed and any perceived weaknesses to be pointed out. Naturally I sometimes don't agree with a specific point of criticism, but this comes with the territory and then again sometimes I am forced to think again, acknowledge a valuable criticism and perhaps, heaven forbid, learn from the experience.

When amateurs post photos in other (non-pro) areas of the forum, perhaps a certain sensitivity to personal feelings is appropriate, but too much of this even there degrades the value of the forum IMO.

So, if an amateur chooses to present work in the professional section (inappropriately, IMO) and engage in the serious debate there, they had better come prepared for some strong criticism if it is justified - and even if they believe that it isn't. The kid gloves should be off. Don't like the heat? Then leave the kitchen.

 

[Mesoam]

A little honesty on my end, its pretty easy for someone who knows nothing about photography to just recognize a nice picture. By far the easiest way to judge a photo is, “would I put this in my house?” Yes there are plenty of crappy pictures but people are learning, and let me tell you I have seen more amateur photographers taking more respectable work than “professionals” scrapping by client to client…

/end rant

 

[JIP]

I have not read this whole thread because I am coming into it late but one thing from the op is correct (or mabye it is just how I personally interpreted the OP). There is a section called "professional portrait and wedding gallery" I go to this section to get inspiration from some of the excellent professional photographers on this forumwhen I go there and see a snapshot from the afformentioned "mom with camera" I am a little disapointed it could be a dad to whatever it is just not a professional image. If that section is meant to be portraits from anyone I think the name of the thread and section should be changed. I know there is a section called "people and pets" and I know some images would just as well fit there but being a lot lower it does not garner the attention of the "professional portrait" section but it sems to me that if it is called "professional" portraits in the "business district" the images should be just that professional images from working photographers. Honestly the feedback should be able to come from anyone but why call it "professional" if that is not the case. One last thing, one solution to this might be to add a portrait section for aspiring amatuer photographers a little higher up than "people and pets" and named differently because I think "people and pets" implies snapshots of your friends and family and. Well whatever sorry for the rambling I guess I have been away from the forum for a little too long.

 

[JerryPH]

I am not a pro in any sense of the word, and if I am breaking any protocol by posting here, I apologize in advance. Please feel free to delete this post if needed.

It sincerely all looks to me like a fairly simple problem at the root of it all and kinda grew into a big thorn bush that touches many people in the wrong way, some more than others.

To me, the answer is simple... if you are not a professional, don't post your work in the section reserved for professionals, even if it is good or bad. Respect the rules of that area that is reserved exclusively for them. Non-pros have their areas and critiques will be lightly tempered and matched with the abilities and experience of the person requesting aid.

If someone does post in there, instead of offering a potentially insulting critique, either delete or move their pics/comments to the appropriate area. Educate the user to place their pictures and comments in the right place so that they and others in the future do not repeat this error.

A second option is to merely set board permissions so that only confirmed pros can post in their area, but that all board members can view and read their comments and learn from it. I am sure that vBulletin is able to do this... most forum software can.

I also feel that although Allsmiles felt strongly about how this board was run, forums are made by the people that contribute to it... not by the people that read and offer little to nothing in return. If in 3 years she posted merely ~175 times and then complained that it was so terrible here and left, it is perhaps better that she did leave. Her contributions were minimal and no one will miss them.

Her decision was to leave, we but need to respect her decision to do so... and hope she is not as emotional concerning other more important things in her life compared to the triviality of a non-pro posting a picture in the wrong area of the forum.

I personally, wish her well.