A small piece of bicycle by Pascal Riben

[The_Traveler]

It appears to me that many people in photography are driven by the control issue, where they want to be really in charge of the process and they love the process as much as the end result.
It's the nitty gritty of messing with things as basic as possible that they enjoy - where the individual gets hands on for the entire cycle; that's what really gets them wet.
Shooting manual, developing film, grokking the grain and the 'look'
This is shown at its most extreme by the large format people who just love the swings and tilts and special developing and the real thrill in the end result is the process by which it was done.

 

[timor]

It appears to me that many people in photography are driven by the control issue, where they want to be really in charge of the process and they love the process as much as the end result.
It's the nitty gritty of messing with things as basic as possible that they enjoy - where the individual gets hands on for the entire cycle; that's what really gets them wet.
Shooting manual, developing film, grokking the grain and the 'look'
This is shown at its most extreme by the large format people who just love the swings and tilts and special developing and the real thrill in the end result is the process by which it was done.

And what's wrong with that ?

 

[The_Traveler]

And what's wrong with that ?

Because it's not making art.
If that's ok with you, go for it.

Would you ever imagine a sculptor judging his work by the fact that he forged his own tools?
Photography lends itself to that kind of engagement with process - unfortunately.

 

[gsgary]

It appears to me that many people in photography are driven by the control issue, where they want to be really in charge of the process and they love the process as much as the end result.
It's the nitty gritty of messing with things as basic as possible that they enjoy - where the individual gets hands on for the entire cycle; that's what really gets them wet.
Shooting manual, developing film, grokking the grain and the 'look'
This is shown at its most extreme by the large format people who just love the swings and tilts and special developing and the real thrill in the end result is the process by which it was done.

And what's wrong with that ?

Nothing because it's the only way with film

 

[gsgary]

And what's wrong with that ?

Because it's not making art.
If that's ok with you, go for it.

Would you ever imagine a sculptor judging his work by the fact that he forged his own tools?
Photography lends itself to that kind of engagement with process - unfortunately.

To make art you need to be able to get the negative right for printing and then the art begins

 

[timor]

And what's wrong with that ?

Because it's not making art.
If that's ok with you, go for it.

Would you ever imagine a sculptor judging his work by the fact that he forged his own tools?
Photography lends itself to that kind of engagement with process - unfortunately.

Curious look at the art. Of course many artists make own tools. Artists of any kind are getting intimately acquainted with their materials, processes, with every detail of their doings as the art is not created by accidents. Who think so is dishonest with himself.

 

[pascalriben]

Once again, there are no rules

So, I'm here to put everybody ok :violin:

HCB didn't edit himself his photos. But of course, he said to the... euh?... what is the word in english? in french we say "tireur", "tirer des photos"... to the man editing his photos what he wanted and it's well know that he loved grey and didn't love to artificially dramatize a picture by "pushing" the black (all english correction welcome :study.

Eugene Smith wanted edit himself his photos and was ready to do the same image 50 times to get exactly what he wanted, reason why LIFE at the end fired him out because he was always late to give them his work.


So... (long time I was expecting to use this smiley...)

 

[gsgary]

I have a friend who is one of the best Armourers in the UK most of his tools he has specially made
He has a suit of armour in the Agincourt Museum
Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2

 

[The_Traveler]

Curious look at the art. Of course many artists make own tools. Artists of any kind are getting intimately acquainted with their materials, processes, with every detail of their doings as the art is not created by accidents. Who think so is dishonest with himself.

Photography, because of its various and highly complex equipment needs, is curiously vulnerable to that kind of process worship.
Yes, I like my cameras and I choose the ones that I can get to do what I want - but it stops there.
I don't worship the cameras or the lenses or the monitors or the printers or the paper or the printing process or the matting and framing - all or some of that may be necessary for how I work now but clearly irrelevant and a minor part of the worth of any finished piece of art.
Would anyone look at a sculpture and saying, 'Man, that fine tooth 1 inch chisel really makes this detail work amazing'? Yet, we certainly do the equivalent in photography.

Technical ability and skill can be taught and learned, creativity less so and talent not at all.
So we generally start at the bottom, learning the skills so we can try to be creative and possibly discover and unleash our talent.
Being skillful means getting all the technical ducks in a row so you can do what you want.
Being creative means letting some of that control go, trying different things and being willing to fail.
Having talent is something that exercising creativity uncovers.

I think that too many people get to be skilled and then stop there, unwilling to attempt creativity for whatever reason and so circle around and around, honing their skills and maybe adding to their knowledge but never going further.

 

[timor]

I think that too many people get to be skilled and then stop there, unwilling to attempt creativity for whatever reason and so circle around and around, honing their skills and maybe adding to their knowledge but never going further.

THIS is a different matter. Not every skilled photographer is an artist, but there is a few talented in the masses of camera bearers. Problem starts when everybody is told he is an artist. This process goes on in most camera stores and on many websites, everyone has little hypocrisy inside, right ? For me a photography is only a hobby and I think, no matter what I do with it, it is time well spent.

 

[The_Traveler]

Problem starts when everybody is told he is an artist. This process goes on in most camera stores and on many websites, everyone has little hypocrisy inside, right ?

These are two generalizations that I don't think you can back up; and I don't know what hypocrisy has to do with it.
It's the constant drum beat of technical chest-beating that I think detracts.
If you, by that I mean the entire YOU, think that manual is good for you or film or Nikon or hdr, do it and stop making how you do something the measure of whether the final result is a success.

It's like being a rabid fan of some team. You liking that team means nothing, nothing.
What counts is what the team does.
You liking shooting in some way means nothing, the only thing, afaic, that counts is the final result.

 

[pascalriben]

Who had been think this post could go so far with a simple bicycle (the plane didn't !).

 

[timor]

Problem starts when everybody is told he is an artist. This process goes on in most camera stores and on many websites, everyone has little hypocrisy inside, right ?

These are two generalizations that I don't think you can back up; and I don't know what hypocrisy has to do with it.
What you don't understand here ?
It's the constant drum beat of technical chest-beating.
Scared of technicalities ? In any case, I don't promote my ideas, Pascal asked, I answered, you jumped in calling me a Buddy Rich. Looks to me like you are beating the drum .
If you, by that I mean the entire YOU, think that manual is good for you or film or Nikon or hdr, do it and stop making how you do something the measure of whether the final result is a success.
Do yo see any of my pictures here ? Or for that matter, anywhere ? I am not bragging about it, you just jumping to conclusions based on 1 or 2 posts directed in any case to Pascal. BTW in film photography success is measured with sensitometry.

It's like being a rabid fan of some team. You liking that team means nothing, nothing.
What counts is what the team does.
Looks to me, that you don't understand the idea of being a fan. I don't want you in my platoon if we go to war.
You liking shooting in some way means nothing, the only thing, afaic, that counts is the final result.
I know, I know. Lance Armstrong also thought this way. What really counts is being in harmony with oneself. How do you measure your final result ? There is one way; number of sold copies to general public. Congratulation for every case you sold more than 10 copies (printed, mounted) of your art. I honestly hope it's a truckload of congratulations. I like, when people succeed, in arts this is always a positive for all of us.

 

[timor]

Who had been think this post could go so far with a simple bicycle (the plane didn't !).

I think the mechanism here is a mutual respect. Traveler and I feel, that if we post something, we deserve a reply. Will go on, until mods run out of patience.

 

[pascalriben]

Who had been think this post could go so far with a simple bicycle (the plane didn't !).

I think the mechanism here is a mutual respect. Traveler and I feel, that if we post something, we deserve a reply. Will go on, until mods run out of patience.

No problem... by maybe during this time, you could take photos?

Of course, if you're at work... it's a different story :mrgreen: