ah, fundamentals. let's have a pow-wow =)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Chat' started by StvShoop, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. StvShoop

    StvShoop TPF Noob!

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    hello everyone!

    i've been a stranger to the photoforum :? only had time to buzz through a very few of your marvelous photos since college started this semester. I'll make a decree to myself to get back into the groove of here as soon as school is out, maybe sooner!

    ^---- that's all introductory matter, it wouldn't be right to plop down the meat of my question here without attempting to excuse my long absence. forgive me! :eek:


    so here's the beef.
    allora...

    why do photographers, architects, writers, etc. (all the "creative" people) make things? why do they create new stuff, things and concepts which never existed before?

    and why are many people content to not create the new?


    the muse is at my ear, i want to extend my currently realized creativity outside myself (onto the forum for example) so i can come back and see it again tomorrow.

    i remember lots of great discussions i've read here and taken part in, which i really learned a lot from. you guys rock :thumbsup: so what do the photographers think about the dark red?

    if there's a topic like this already, please direct me :oops:
     
  2. motcon

    motcon TPF Noob!

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    cognitively speaking, creation is the variation on/of themes. it's the, 'tastes like chicken, but it kinda doesn't and it isn't' thing. there very well may be an outcry (and anticipated) of, 'new things are created', but allow me....

    we are a product of what we experience with our senses. art is a function of the ability to observe and retain our environment and the drive to create.

    sensory perception and retention of environment:creativity = (yields) product (art).

    everything we see around us, everything we feel, hear, taste, smell, and touch go into our 'work' as artists. those that are aware of their surroundings do this consciously. others do it subconciously.

    to those that say absolute new works/things can be created:

    - from birth you grew up and existed in a white room with no windows. your work would consist of what? visions of yourself. food. water. white walls. lines. the color of your skin. your anatomy. whatever you have in that room. if not, from where do you derive your 'creativity'?

    - speaking of the cognitive and the intellect, this is indeed the highest of compliments. one that can observe, retain, mingle, and be selective of his/her surroundings is to be admired. one that can take all of that and put forth a work of art is to be commended.

    there is a valid reason that artists (musicians, actors, painters, sculptors, photographers) have people that have 'influenced' their work. so to those that use all of their senses and employ the mind in a discernable fashion to put forth a piece of art; my hat is off to you.

    'tis a beautiful thing. did you create that? :wink:
     
  3. ferny

    ferny TPF Noob!

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    I was going to say the same as motcon. Just not as well. :mrgreen:

    Also, is it just the "arty types" "creating", or is it just that they are the ones who recognise new things and/or report it? Surely there are lots of people who discover new things before the one person who lays claim to finding does?

    How many times have you seen a new invention of TV which either you or someone you know knocked up in their shed years ago and have been using ever since?
     
  4. StvShoop

    StvShoop TPF Noob!

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    not sure i understand what you mean. the dark red was referring to the text in dark red in that post, and i wrote it. thanks i guess, haha :)

    gah, that's too much to read for so early in the morning :cheers:

    what's with the drive to create though? why do great creators have to create, or have a spastic attack?

    there's another part that i didn't think of asking before; since this is a photography forum, which is it: is your photography intended to create new meaning, or do you simply record what's there, or can it be both at the same time?
     
  5. Scurra

    Scurra TPF Noob!

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    I don't really attempt to create... just capture. I like to think of it as not just capturing the image though but also capturing the mood and ambience of a particular setting.
     
  6. StvShoop

    StvShoop TPF Noob!

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    maybe the selection of the object or scene or mood that you want to capture is the creative action?
     
  7. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    Perhaps creativity is merely a by-product of something else.
    We have infinite curiosity so maybe it's just us going 'what happens if I do this?'
    Children are very creative when they play but this is a means of finding out about the world. We loose this sense of fun and wonder as we get older and take this creativity thing much more seriously.
    So could creativity be nothing more than a game? Then why do we play it?
    We like newness and novelty so maybe we are creative in order to stop the world becoming boring.
    We also have a strong drive to communicate so maybe creativity is just an attempt to express things we can't put into words.
    I do know that most of the really creative people I have known have had big but fragile egos so perhaps it is just one-upmanship.
    We also like to control and manipulate our environment so maybe that is the well-spring.
    Any, all or none of these things could have a bearing.
    I think the root causes of creativity are very complex and if you try to analyse it or disect it you destroy it. And I think that there are many reasons that can drive someone to be creative - this is part of it's charm and mystery.
    People seem to be at their most creative when working within very tight restrictions. Total freedom rarely produces anything of note (my opinion). So I would conclude that creativity needs something to work against or react with.

    These are just random musings and I have no fixed thoughts on the subject.
     
  8. motcon

    motcon TPF Noob!

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    i concur with the restrictive process. Stravinsky once said that he purposely limited himself during the creative process of composing; total freedom of that process leads to chaos. an excerpt:

     
  9. StvShoop

    StvShoop TPF Noob!

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    glad that someone mentioned animals. i would say that creativity, the ability to consiously adapt to new and unprecedented environments and generate original concepts, is what makes us different from other creatures.

    some animals can make homes out of mud or wood, use tools to crack shells, etc, but all wasps' nests are the same (and so on).
     
  10. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    Not to a wasp. And here were I live all the houses are pretty much the same. Your argument doesn't really stand up - check out the behaviour of primates. Chimpanzees did paintings in the 50's and 60's and that nice Mr Picasso saw them as fellow artists. Elephants paint too and they don't look random to me.
    I think the only thing that separates us from all the other animals is our fixation with physical things - and credit cards.
    I think we tooked a step backwards sumwuzz....
     
  11. StvShoop

    StvShoop TPF Noob!

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    sorry to be blunt, but i think your argument is the one that doesn't stand up. what wasps' perception of their hives is would make for an interesting discussion; at the moment, i wouldn't guess they understand it as different from anything else in the world. picasso calling monkeys artists doesn't make them artists. dont get me started on the elephants :p .
    i don't mean to be antagonistic, i'm just trying to make my point, so no hard feelings i hope.

    back to the wasps, since perception was brought up, what's the difference between a human's perception and some other creature's? going back to what i said in my last post, i think a large part of creativity is the fact that we can not only perceive our environment, but also that we can conceive of changing the environment to affect our experiece of it. (perhaps i'm getting too architecture-y? i want this to address all outlets of creativity, so someone point me here if i'm getting too narrow).
    wasps and other dwelling-building creatures, i strongly believe, only follow their inherited instincts and perhaps learn behaviors from other animals of the same species. there's no significant conception going on there.

    i think of conception as part of perception. to perceive an idea is to conceive.
    we can perceive of the environment, ourselves, others, tensions between these three, and ways of changing the current situation to make another one which is different in some significant way. then the only thing missing from the creative process is moving one's body and actually changing the world. (perceiving of groceries being lifted)---> by means of the moving hand.

    but none of this answers why we create. dinner time :oops:

    hertz, your name is cool. i thought it was a european name at first, like Baron Von Schneider or something.
     
  12. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    I think you are being objective about animals but subjective about humans. If you look at both objectively you will see what I mean.
    Picasso ACCEPTED chimpanzees as fellow artists. What does make someone an artist? And who is qualified to decide? I sure ain't and I would hazard you aren't either. If something isn't so just because you say it is, then saying it isn't so doesn't mean it isn't either.
    And you think humans don't follow inherited instincts like other animals and learn their behaviour from others?
    As to changing the environment to suit themselves - what do you think a wasps nest is doing? And have you seen what an ant colony can do to it's surroundings?
    But to return: I was trying to make the point that the creative process is not unique to man, therefore it's cause is something VERY fundamental to our psyches. That it has survived survived through to us means it must have an evolutionary value.
    But we don't really know WHY.
    Try to get hold of a copy of The Act Of Creation by Arthur Koestler. It's the only book I know that has tried to discuss this. It contains much to make you think even if you don't agree with him.

    PS no hard feelings felt (duh!). I love a discussion that is passionate and gets me thinking. Don't you? :)

    PPS See my later posting in my Hello message for the name.
     

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