ARRGHHH.. I thought I had it..

[stsinner]

I guarantee you'd get the same results, man. I have others of that same day with a fire in the background, colored lights on a wreath, etc.

I tell you what... try it. If it really doesn't work, I'll hoof it out to visit you and we'll figure the damned thing out.

Dude!! I forgot that you're in MA, so get your ass over here! I've got a glass of wine, a shot of Captain Morgan or whatever warms you waiting, and I'm going to pick your brain!! You didn't tell me what to try, so I guess you just have to come!! PM me!

 

[manaheim]

PM sent.

What I suggest you try (at least until I get out there and raid your liquor cabinet) , is to point the Sb-600 at the ceiling, turn the flash power down a couple clicks, put the camera in program mode and take a picture.

Oh and put a diffuser on it the flash, or at least tape an index card on the back of the flash.

That -should- do the trick. That's all I did with my pic.

 

[kundalini]

stsinner, you should learn some manners. Over the last few weeks you have been offered some good advice and been extended a gracious amount of leniency, irrespective of your harsh comments on other topics. I have been withdrawn towards any further involvement until tonight because of an attitude you displayed even though "you were having a bad night". I am one to turn the other cheek.

However, and I'm not about to speak for ANDS! or anybody else, but your disrespect to those offering assistance is appauling. You were given an example for the problems you are facing in this (and other) threads, yet you choose to attack someone that is offering a hand up.

I don't exactly need the clarity of razor bumps like your subject has from shaving.. Since it's a co-worker, you might tell him that if he shaves the night before and right after getting out of the shower that the bumps are almost nonexistent.. Or maybe the shot was spur of the moment..

What's up with that? If you're having difficulty, then at least be apprciative to those that are willing to guide you through the difficulties and please, please, please RTFM! Carry on with such insults and your learning curve has grown exponentially.

 

[stsinner]

stsinner, you should learn some manners. Over the last few weeks you have been offered some good advice and been extended a gracious amount of leniency, irrespective of your harsh comments on other topics. I have been withdrawn towards any further involvement until tonight because of an attitude you displayed even though "you were having a bad night". I am one to turn the other cheek.

However, and I'm not about to speak for ANDS! or anybody else, but your disrespect to those offering assistance is appauling. You were given an example for the problems you are facing in this (and other) threads, yet you choose to attack someone that is offering a hand up.



What's up with that? If you're having difficulty, then at least be apprciative to those that are willing to guide you through the difficulties and please, please, please RTFM! Carry on with such insults and your learning curve has grown exponentially.

What??? You have been nothing but a dick to me, even PMing me trying to justify being a dick to me.. I even apologize for saying something that prompted you to be a dick to me...

I offer honest advice, sorry I mistook a girl for a guy, and you attack me for it? Holy God.. Could you be any more rude.. Just click ignore on my name, dude, as I don't know what you want from me.... And I obviously don't need your advice... (But I won't click ignore on your name, beause I respect your knowledge and that you may have something valuable to offer that I might miss) Wow.. Didn't expect that one.. I try to be courteous to everyone offering advice.. Nobody has been able to offer settings advice to get this shot right yet.....

 

[ANDS!]

Nobody has been able to offer settings advice to get this shot right yet.....

Because the shot you want you cant get? I don't know any other way to explain it bro. You want WEAK lights to glow which requires a VERY LONG shutter speed (which will in turn flood your scene with ambient light), yet you also want your kids in focus, and sharp which requires a VERY FAST shutter speed, or for your kids to remain still for a relatively long time, which you have said they cant do.

Theres a difference between help, and a refusal to accept anything that doesn't confirm what you want it to. That's what we have going on here. I think MANHEIM has it right - it doesn't seem like you have enough grasp on the absolute basics of this stuff to justify throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your shots.

 

[stsinner]

Theres a difference between help, and a refusal to accept anything that doesn't confirm what you want it to. That's what we have going on here. I think MANHEIM has it right - it doesn't seem like you have enough grasp on the absolute basics of this stuff to justify throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your shots.

Man..... Tough crowd.. You're right, I'm not a professional, nor have I spent one day in class for this stuff, but I guarantee you I could answer you any question you asked about how one thing set a certain way influenced another.. Maybe I'm at the limit of my equipment.. No need to be a dick about it.. Maybe you're right and I can't have the lights from the Christmas tree endear themselves to the photo.. Maybe that is the case, but just say that in those word rather than just saying that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.. Yeah, I'm new to photography, but I've read about things like REAR CURTAIN that freeze motion in night shots, etc.. Maybe you're not there yet...

I thought that using slow sync I could achieve it, but evidently not.. So be it.. I don't expect miracles...

That being said, I don't see any reason to insist on full Manual mode? Is that like a badge of honor? I don't want to have to pay $1000 for camera gear and think about and set every setting.... Aperture Priority is a baby step off of AUTO, and it gives me the flexibility to choose flash modes, WB settings and Aperture.. Why would I want to have to worry about more? I'm not one who tries to brag or get glory for his shots, so I just get the shot however I get it... AP, AUTO or full Manual... The resultant shot is all that matters-not how you got it... I just want to send Christmas cards to family, whether I captured them in chest thumping Manual or sissified Aperture Priority..

The sad part is, ANDS!, I've read on here that you know your stuff, and if you don't like me, then I likely won't benefit from that, but I will not be talked to like I'm some sort of dumbass when I'm an electronics engineer and am only new to photography.. I can take being told that I'm at the limit of my equipment, etc, but to start getting personal is way out of line.. You can tell me why EV adjustments won't work, etc... I appreciate your help, but you seem to be confusing my conversation with other members with my dealings with you, and they don't jibe..

So be it.. Carry on.

 

[ANDS!]

You're right, I'm not a professional, nor have I spent one day in class for this stuff

I bet more than half of the people here haven't either.

Maybe I'm at the limit of my equipment.. No need to be a dick about it.

Interesting. I was pointing out your reticence in accepting the limitations of your LIGHTING scenario (which has nothing to do with your photography equipment that would't exist with any other photographer). How you took that as a slight against your camera equipment is beyond me.

Maybe that is the case, but just say that in those word rather than just saying that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

The reason I said that, is because you are tossing things into this shot that don't need to be there. Why are you shooting at ISO800, indoors, with a dedicated flash, at 1/6th of a second? THAT is what has prompted me to question whether or not you understand some of these things beyond the basics. I had NO SHAME in Nov 2006 when I bought my first dSLR in coming here and asking questions and getting help - including posting photos that needed a ton of work, or weren't level or I thought were magic that really weren't. Sure I got butt-hurt but the criticisms were accurate.

Yeah, I'm new to photography, but I've read about things like REAR CURTAIN that freeze motion in night shots, etc

That's not at all what that means. Rear and front curtain sync only tells the camera when to fire the flash: right after the lens is opened, or before it is closed. It's not going to help you freeze action.

That being said, I don't see any reason to insist on full Manual mode?

Because even though you aren't in AUTO mode, doesn't mean you have full control to do what you want to do. Your situation is a good example of this.

I'm not one who tries to brag or get glory for his shots, so I just get the shot however I get it.

I'm sorry thats the rationale you've come to to explain why some folks are suggesting one means of doing something. It's not. Again, if you aren't here for help why are you here? If you think these suggestions are meant to knock you down or insult you (which NO ONE has done), then you're journey to get better through the help of others is going to be very long and very arduous.

 

[kundalini]

What??? You have been nothing but a dick to me, even PMing me trying to justify being a dick to me.. I even apologize for saying something that prompted you to be a dick to me...

I offer honest advice, sorry I mistook a girl for a guy, and you attack me for it? Holy God.. Could you be any more rude.. Just click ignore on my name, dude, as I don't know what you want from me.... And I obviously don't need your advice... (But I won't click ignore on your name, beause I respect your knowledge and that you may have something valuable to offer that I might miss) Wow.. Didn't expect that one.. I try to be courteous to everyone offering advice.. Nobody has been able to offer settings advice to get this shot right yet.....

Thank you for the confirmation.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gyVnTpSnl4&feature=PlayList&p=84B5159B760910A6&index=0&playnext=1"]Response I[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA"]Response II[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ITOWChB35o"]Response III[/ame]

Now that the dust has been settled, have a good life.

 

[stsinner]

i'm sorry thats the rationale you've come to to explain why some folks are suggesting one means of doing something. It's not. Again, if you aren't here for help why are you here? If you think these suggestions are meant to knock you down or insult you (which NO ONE has done), then you're journey to get better through the help of others is going to be very long and very arduous.

I think I can explain this..... I reserve Manual for the PROS, and I"M NOT A PRO... I want nothing to do with Manual... There are several other modes I can use that help me in one way or another.. Not trying to be a dick at all... Just honest.

 

[Overread]

stsinner if you retain that veiw then your going to give yourself a lot of problems!
Modes like aperture priority and shutter priority are fantastic modes as they allow you to control 1 key element of a photo and let the camera control the other in responce to changing lighting = if your working to a "perfect exposure" as read by a meter then the camera can read the built in meter and adjust the shutter speed (if in aperture priority mode) or the aperture (if in shutter priority mode) far quicker than you can - and it never misses checking the meter bar either.
Many times this is enough and it works very well - and if you want to over or under expose a shot you can by adjusting where on the meter bar you want the exposure to be -- often in bright sunlight its favourable to underexpose a shot to preserve the highlights for example.
However there are many times where you are not aiming for a perfect exposure or want a certain fixed set of values to capture a sight that normally would not be "allowed" by the camera meter without you having to filled with exposure compensation (which might not pick the values you want). Working with falsh is a prime example because the camera is not metering with the falsh in consideration - its metering without it - therefore its going to pick a slower shutter speed in darker conditions even if the falsh would bring up the light for a much faster speed.
I am no PRO in any shape or form yet I don't do macro photography in any other mode but manual mode - otherwise I can't get a small aperture combined with a fast shutter speed without a lot of fiddleing and more hastle than I need. Essentially with flash the lighting I have each time is very similar therefore I don't need to take advantage of the fast adaptive modes like aperture and shutter priority --- the case above is also where this is true. Your not changing the lighting and you working from a tripod at a staged shot - you don't need fast adaptations, so there is no gain from working in the priority modes -- meanwhile manual mode can let you control the settings and take into account the light from the flash to try for the effect you want.
Manual mode is not a status symbol nor is it some sort of mode reserved for the PROs its just a mode on the camera wheel like any other. It has advantages and disadvantages. Also remember that the semi auto modes are very new (comparativly speaking) and that "back in the day" manual mode was the only mode there was - so its not some special mode anyway

 

[stsinner]

Well, I really appreciate all the help, but it's apparent to me that I need to read up on some things before trying to shoot again.. I'm shooting this scene with an obvious lack of understanding of some important things-not the least of which being metering..

There are so many things to learn that I really had no interest in .. I'm not one of those people who is interested in knowing the mechanics of a shot. It doesn't interest me at all. I just want to take good pictures, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that I need to understand the mechanics of a shot. It's also becoming increasingly apparent that I need to get good at Photoshop.

Back to the drawing board, or at least Wikipedia.

 

[ANDS!]

Lack of understanding of Photoshop or really even metering (the camera does a fairly good job of this), isn't the problem.

 

[Overread]

some people learn by reading
others learn by doing

Photography is a hands on hobby - you can know all the theory backwards, but if you don't have some hands on experience then its stilll just has hard to shoot. Do read up on what you don't know, but don't abandon the camera. In a way its a bit like learning a musical instroment - you can't learn to play piano without first playing it and making mistakes (and sounding like a cat ran across the keys ). With (regular) practise you can improve upon that and start to put the theory to better use in the practical

 

[stsinner]

That's some sound advice, for sure.. I read some bits and watched some tutuorials on metering just so I have a grasp on what the term means. I read about using a gray card to meter (do people actually do that?) and using spot-metering. The reason I chose to tackle metering is because it was recommended to meter off of the pellet stove, and I had no idea what I was being told to do. It's good to understand, anyway..

Now I need to read about bracketing.

 

[Big Mike]

I see where you are trying to go with this shot...but you might be fighting a loosing battle with your equipment and lack of experience.
I don't think it's as simple as just finding the right combination of settings.

To get the results that you are after...I would probably try to light the tree and the children separately. You might need to move them farther away from the tree. This might be hard to do with on-camera flash, especially if you are bouncing it. Maybe try it with the flash directly at them.

Ideally, I'd have lights set to light up the kids but not hit the tree...and then possibly use separate light for the tree or maybe use ambient with a long shutter speed...but you might need to protect the kids from too much ambient light, to prevent blur.

Working with what you have...I'd suggest getting as close to the kids as possible, while getting them farther away from the tree. That should allow you to use the flash to light them...with less of that flash washing out the tree. Experiment with raising the ISO and lowering the shutter speed, and maybe you can find a balance that shows the tree closer to how you want it.

And a note to everyone...lets keep this thread on-topic and friendlier than it has been.