Canon EOS 400D Soft Images

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

Hi Guys.

I have been with Canon Digital since the days of the S40. and now on my 4th. I have just bought the Eos 400D :heart: and find it to be a delight to use. (NOTE: If you can afford to. buy it as body only and get a better lens. The kit lens (EFS 18 -55 3.5 - 5.6 II) is a fine little starter. But if you want better you need to upgrade). I would reccomend it to any one ..... BUT.... The whole point of going up the megga pixel and well known brand trail, is to get SHARP DEFINITION.... and frankly I am not getting any better than with my G5 which was only 5 Mp.
I can pop them through Photoshop (It takes a L O N G W H I L E to put 1000 images through Photoshop). and sharpen them up. But to get the full definition it requires 200% unsharp mask. Have you ever seen an image processed with 200% unsharp Mask.... Not pretty. any way why should I spend £500 on a camera which takes soft images....?
Does any one know how I can get sharp images from the camera? or from a quick fix out of the camera? or is it just My specific camera ? does any one have one which takes razor sharp pics ? etc etc.....

Many thanks..... :wink:

bitteraspects · Nov 9, 2006

its not the camera its the lense

darich · Nov 9, 2006

I'd agree with bitteraspects about the problem being the lens and not the camera. You said yourself it's a fine starter lens but better to go for a higher quality lens.

That said, i bought a Canon Digital Rebel a few years back with the kit lens (18-55mm non USM) and got some fine shots with it. I now have a 5D with top quality L glass and sometimes get soft shots so it's not necessarily your equipment.
check the following-

DOF is too shallow and your subject is not plane of focus

camera shake can be reduced by using a tripod or decreasing shutter speed

try using the flash since it will "freeze" shots better than those with no flash

increase your ISO to decrease your shutter speed.

borrow a lens to compare images with your lens.

try your lens on another camera to compare your camera

There are so many variables that you could check before assuming it's your camera so check them out and see if things improve

fmw · Nov 9, 2006

I have no knowledge at all about the camera and lens. But I will make a comment about unsharp mask and mega pixels. Photoshop doesn't sharpen soft images, it just increases contrast at the edges. If the subject is out of focus or at the corner of the frame where the lens doesn't do too well or has motion blur or is soft for any other reason, Photoshop can't fix it. It can only "mask" it. The image has to be made right in the first place.

The only time I use unsharp mask is to clean up the image after I resize it. The resizing process can soften things a little and unsharp mask can fix its own issues because the sharpness is already inherent in the image. I generally use between 20% and 30%. It doesn't take much.

More megapixels will provide more image resolution but not more sharpness. Sharpness is still controlled by focus, depth of field, camera stability and all the other basics of making good images. More pixels will simply provide more out-of-sharp things for photoshop to worry about.

Let me suggest a little test. If you have a tripod use it for the test. If you don't, then find something stable in which you can cradle the camera to keep it from moving during an exposure. Find a high contrast, brigtly lit subject and focus manually and carefully. Then put that image into photoshop and see if it is sharp. If it is not, then the equipment is probably faulty. If it is, you will have improved your technique and will have learned more about what your camera needs to shoot sharp images.

I shot this image a few days ago. This is the type of image I'm talking about. It is only a 72ppi JPEG (very low resolution) but it is sharp with no help from Photoshop. See if you can make an image like this with your camera.

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

No. Iv'e tried 3 lenses and all are identical

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

darich said:
I'd agree with bitteraspects about the problem being the lens and not the camera. You said yourself it's a fine starter lens but better to go for a higher quality lens.

That said, i bought a Canon Digital Rebel a few years back with the kit lens (18-55mm non USM) and got some fine shots with it. I now have a 5D with top quality L glass and sometimes get soft shots so it's not necessarily your equipment.
check the following-

DOF is too shallow and your subject is not plane of focus

Many types of image including landscapes. at f16 and above.

camera shake can be reduced by using a tripod or decreasing shutter speed

Have used a tripod on many and flash and high shutter speeds

try using the flash since it will "freeze" shots better than those with no flash

increase your ISO to decrease your shutter speed.

Not required 55mm equiv Iso 100 1/250th bright sun should be sharp

borrow a lens to compare images with your lens.

Have used 3 of my own lenses all good quality and perform fine on film EOS.

try your lens on another camera to compare your camera

Lenses worked fine

There are so many variables that you could check before assuming it's your camera so check them out and see if things improve

Many thanks for the run down though. It is nice to know that other people would use the same checks so I might not have missed out much.

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

fmw said:
I have no knowledge at all about the camera and lens. But I will make a comment about unsharp mask and mega pixels. Photoshop doesn't sharpen soft images, it just increases contrast at the edges. If the subject is out of focus or at the corner of the frame where the lens doesn't do too well or has motion blur or is soft for any other reason, Photoshop can't fix it. It can only "mask" it. The image has to be made right in the first place.

The only time I use unsharp mask is to clean up the image after I resize it. The resizing process can soften things a little and unsharp mask can fix its own issues because the sharpness is already inherent in the image. I generally use between 20% and 30%. It doesn't take much.

More megapixels will provide more image resolution but not more sharpness. Sharpness is still controlled by focus, depth of field, camera stability and all the other basics of making good images. More pixels will simply provide more out-of-sharp things for photoshop to worry about.

Let me suggest a little test. If you have a tripod use it for the test. If you don't, then find something stable in which you can cradle the camera to keep it from moving during an exposure. Find a high contrast, brigtly lit subject and focus manually and carefully. Then put that image into photoshop and see if it is sharp. If it is not, then the equipment is probably faulty. If it is, you will have improved your technique and will have learned more about what your camera needs to shoot sharp images.

I shot this image a few days ago. This is the type of image I'm talking about. It is only a 72ppi JPEG (very low resolution) but it is sharp with no help from Photoshop. See if you can make an image like this with your camera.

Really like the image. at this size mine appear fine. It is only as you home in on them at pixel size that the softness really come through.
I normally use photoshop at up to 60% depending on the size of the file (bigger files will allow you to use more U/M. although only like you after processing. the remark about the 200% plus was an illustraition to suggest that all is not well. It does pull out the detail at that amount but as you can imagine it is not worth looking at. again (And to every one.) Many thanks for your help and suggestions. I really appreciate it. As no-one has come up with anything that Ive not tried I can at least pat myself on the back for having tried most if not all of the most obvious things. I had though that there may be "in camera" processing involved which I had not found, But if so I still can't find it. A friend with a 5D and a1DMkII gets sharp images out of the camera and to be honest I really don't see why I shouldn't as well. Thanks again
Tim H.

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

is there a way to post images without having a "url" ie straight from the computer?

Big Mike · Nov 9, 2006

To post images...you have to use a remote host (Photobucket is a good one)...or if you subscribe to this site, you can upload directly.

It is only as you home in on them at pixel size that the softness really come through

If you try to find fault...you will find it with any image...irregardless of the camera or format.

I've found that just about all digital images need sharpening of some sort. Digi-cams sharpen the images in-camera (which is why people often think that digi-cams produce sharper images)...and you can set your DSLR to do the same with Jpegs. If you shoot RAW, that shaperning is not applied to the image unless you do it during RAW conversion or later in Photoshop.

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

Now THAT sounds interesting.. Not least because it means that I am not necessarily at fault. AND it's not expensive ! ! !
Many thanks again,

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

Thought that I'd try to upload a couple of the images. May be able to see what I mean. worth a try anyway.

To be honest I rather think the softness suits this one. Although it is not what I was trying to achieve at the time, and would prefer the option of introducing it in a print if I wanted it.

Digital Matt · Nov 9, 2006

I'm curious.... What 3 lenses did you try exactly?

Big Mike · Nov 9, 2006

These don't look bad to me.

Were these shot with the kit lens? Sure, L glass will give you 'better' shots...but the kit lens is decent when stopped down.

The first shot looks to be in harsh (mid day) sun...and the second one has haze or fog....so that is another issue.

I think that both these shots would benefit from a little sharpening.

USM (unsharp mask) can be a bit of a mystery. With three separate variables...it's hard to know what to do...and there isn't a lot of good info about this (or else, everyone has a different technique).

There are other options for sharpening. I seem to remember something about 'smart sharpening'...which may be a different feature or plug in for Photoshop. I sometimes use a different technique that involves a highpass filter on a separate layer, set to either overlay, hard or soft light.

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

Hi Matt
I used the kit lens
an EF 20 usm
an EF 75 - 300
and a sigma 105 f2.8

Groupcaptainbonzo · Nov 9, 2006

Both of the shots included were shot on the kit lens. the first was at about 09:30 - 10:00 am (Very low angle of sun in Nov in the U.K.) and the second is hazed by distance and water. photoshop used only to sharpen at about 80% USM. which is more than I would usually use. and , as you say I feel that they could be a little sharper.. this is just a feel that I get and maybe I have talked myself into becomming paranoid about it.

there are a few more at :-

http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/groupcaptainbonzo/?start=all

don't know if that will work...