CCD worse than CMOS in ISO performance?

Discussion in 'Photography Equipment & Products' started by passerby, Jul 25, 2008.

  1. passerby

    passerby TPF Noob!

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    I don't have a camera with CMOS engine so I can't judge the CMOS
    ISO performance. The nikon D40 I have here is CCD. I took these
    5 shots barely minutes ago to ask you if they are worse than CMOS?
    Sure it is cheapest DSLR therefore I expect no miracle.

    You can see the ISO number right in each shot, and I cropped
    the ISO 3200 to get as close as possible.
    Is ISO 3200 are really bad here?

    ISO 200
    [​IMG]

    ISO 400
    [​IMG]

    ISO 800
    [​IMG]

    ISO 1600
    [​IMG]

    ISO 3200
    [​IMG]

    ISO 3200 cropped
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Garbz

    Garbz No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Firstly you photos are scientifically invalid. The last photo shows HighISO NR is turned on and will mask the real noise result from the sensor.

    Secondly no there's no such comparison. In the right engineers hands both CMOS and CCD can be made wonderfully resilient to noise. I believe CMOS are cheaper to produce these days because of economies of scale.
     
  3. passerby

    passerby TPF Noob!

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    Thanks man, you right here. The built in camera info states it as Hi-1, but when I look at Picasa it's blank. So is there a method to push it to it's limit? the 3200 is visibly grainier than 1600.
     
  4. RyanLilly

    RyanLilly No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Hey Garbz, not to thread jack, but what exif reader do you use? I most of the basic info but nothing about noise reduction.

    As far as the photos, My 3200 on my canon 20D at first glance I would say is better, but anything up to 1600 in real 4x6 prints the noise is probably very close, you may see a difference in larger prints but its hard to say. Hard to say without a side by side comparison.
     
  5. Bifurcator

    Bifurcator TPF Noob!

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    I am under the very strong impression that CMOS sensors are inherently less noisy than CCDs. It may be due to the physical properties of the device or it may be due to the maturity of the technologies and engineers now more focused and active in developing CMOS process designs than the older, more expensive CCD types. It could also be the quality or layout of the surrounding system components as Garbz taught me a little over a month ago now.

    The images in the original post are really just showing the efficiency of the in-camera noise reduction algorithms - which I believe can be beaten with any of several Photoshop plug-ins. If you want to compare noise between a specific CCD and a CMOS chip or just show the noise level of the camera you have then I guess you need to show 100% crops of the unprocessed RAW files.
     
  6. Bifurcator

    Bifurcator TPF Noob!

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    BTW, yes, those are pretty terrible. :( By 1600 the in camera NR had to be so strong that all the brick detail was erased in the process. At 3200 not only was the detail destroyed but the NR algorithm could no longer even do it's job.

    I guess for great high-detail photos the top ISO that is still usable in the d40 is 400??
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2008
  7. Garbz

    Garbz No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Oh exif reader? Didn't use it this time I could see that the image had NR applied to it because of a lack of colour noise (something most prevalent and yet most easily removed from high-ISO shots)
    I do use the firefox plugin FxIF though which shows the exif data in the standard properties dialogue when I rightclick on an image in the browser.
     
  8. notelliot

    notelliot TPF Noob!

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    I think CCDs generate more heat, which would result in more noise. but at lower ISOs (the CCD sweetspot) generates less noise. I could be wrong, but I know I'm at least close..
     
  9. gryphonslair99

    gryphonslair99 Been spending a lot of time on here!

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    FYI - Opanda IExiF viewer does show noise reduction was on. Free plugin from Opanda.com.
     
  10. RyanLilly

    RyanLilly No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Oh, you you just used your brain rather than a computer program. :D
    Yeah I already use that firefox plugin as well. Just have to get my eyes-to-brain plugin fixed I guess.

    Cool Good to know. Thanks.
     
  11. Bifurcator

    Bifurcator TPF Noob!

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    Here's what I see in Safari:

    • File name: 1600-iso.jpg
    • File size: 406773 bytes (800x532, 7.6bpp, 3x)
    • EXIF Summary: 1/1000s f/16.0 ISO1600 55mm (35mm eq:82mm)

    Camera-Specific Properties:

    • Equipment Make: NIKON CORPORATION
    • Camera Model: NIKON D40
    • Camera Software: Ver.1.10
    • Maximum Lens Aperture: f/5.7
    • Sensing Method: One-Chip Color Area
    • Color Filter Array Pattern: 836
    • Focal Length (35mm Equiv): 82 mm

    Image-Specific Properties:

    • Image Orientation: Top, Left-Hand
    • Horizontal Resolution: 72 dpi
    • Vertical Resolution: 72 dpi
    • Image Created: 2008:07:25 11:40:31
    • Exposure Time: 1/1000 sec
    • F-Number: f/16.0
    • Exposure Program: Manual
    • ISO Speed Rating: 1600
    • Exposure Bias: -1.3 EV
    • Metering Mode: Spot
    • Light Source: Unknown
    • Flash: No Flash
    • Focal Length: 55.00 mm
    • Color Space Information: sRGB
    • Image Width: 800
    • Image Height: 532
    • Rendering: Normal
    • Exposure Mode: Manual
    • Scene Capture Type: Standard
    • Gain Control: High Gain Up
    • Contrast: Normal
    • Sharpness: Hard
    • Subject Distance Range: Unknown
    • ISO Speed Used: 1600
    • Color Mode: COLOR
    • Image Quality: FINE
    • White Balance: AUTO
    • Image Sharpening: MED.H
    • Focus Mode: AF-A
    • Flash Setting: NORMAL
    • Flash Compensation: 39.7 EV
    • ISO Speed Requested: 1600
    • Tone Compensation: NORMAL
    • Lens Type: Nikon D Series
    • Lens Range: 18.0 - 55.0 mm; f/3.5 - f/5.6
    • Auto Focus: Closest Subject, Center Selected, Top Focused
    • Shooting/Bracketing Mode: Single Frame/Off
    • Color Mode: Landscape sRGB
    • Lighting Type: NATURAL
    • Noise Reduction: OFF
    • Camera Actuations: 4978
    • Image Optimization: VIVID
    • Saturation 2: ENHANCED
    For the ISO 3200 image however it says:
    • Noise Reduction: FPNR
    • Camera Actuations: 4979
    • Image Optimization: VIVID
    • Saturation 2: ENHANCED



    Other Properties:

    • Resolution Unit: i
    • Chrominance Comp Positioning: Co-Sited
    • Exif IFD Pointer: 216
    • Compression Scheme: JPEG Compression (Thumbnail)
    • Horizontal Resolution: 72 dpi
    • Vertical Resolution: 72 dpi
    • Resolution Unit: i
    • Offset to JPEG SOI: 30620
    • Bytes of JPEG Data: 8939
    • Chrominance Comp Positioning: Co-Sited
    • Exif Version: 2.21
    • Image Generated: 2008:07:25 11:40:31
    • Image Digitized: 2008:07:25 11:40:31
    • Meaning of Each Comp: Unknown
    • Image Compression Mode: 4
    • Comment:
    • DateTime Second Fraction: 40
    • DateTimeOriginal Second Fraction: 40
    • DateTimeDigitized Second Fraction: 40
    • File Source: Other
    • Scene Type: Unknown
    • White Balance: Auto
    • Digital Zoom Ratio: 1
    • Saturation: High
    • Nikon Note Version: 2.10
    • Auto Flash Mode:
    • Flash Used: No
    • Digital Vari-Program:
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2008
  12. Garbz

    Garbz No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    Most definitely. However a sensor rarely has time to heat up during a 1/100th of a second. These things take time. But to take your analogy further yes regardless of how the sensor is implemented in a design if the shutter speed was slow enough to allow heat to play a role (think 10 minute plus exposures) a CMOS will win hands down.

    Off topic: Funny this should come up because today my advisor and I was talking about a professor from QUT who's going to Antarctica for some experiment and was too stubborn to spend money on a decent camera and is taking a Fuji P&S. One of the photonics guys in the meeting turned and said well if his camera works at least he'll get noise free shots from it for a change :lol:
     

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