Critique or encouragement?

[markc]

if the photo is trully artistically and technically lacking .. then it must be mentioned .... if "we" throw in our personal choices than we're molding this individual to swallow our style and their not allowed to bloom

But who determines what is artistically and technically lacking? Isn't that a personaly choice? A picture may not be in focus, but that can be an artistic choice, even if it isn't usually considered technically correct. Who really has the final word on what is "correct"? I personally see everything as being a personal choice, and the more we are exposed to, the more choices we have at our disposal to make.

I don't see a critique as a way of showing someone how it should be done. There's no such thing. It's just a way of explaining how we ourselves would have done it. Sure, we can have an undue influence on someone, but I think that person should be free to mimic as a way of exploration. I think this happens a lot in all mediums. Eventually, they will start to find their own style as they explore more and more as they start getting comfortable with all the choices that need to be made.

 

[markc]

as far as downloading folks photos .. i think its disrespectful ... the person has everything "wrong" in your eyes ... u take their "prized possession" and do it better than them (better in your eyes) ... u repost it ... i think its insensative .. if they feel passionate about their photos as i do ... its like painting over a painter's art :?

Are you talking about cropping an image? Cause I mentioned downloading an image for two purposes. Say I download someones image that has a magenta color cast on it and fix the white balance and tell them how I achieved it. There is nothing disrespectful about it. It's not saying that everything is "wrong" in my eyes. It says to them, this is a good image, with a small amount of tweaking it can be an excellent image.

Agreed. It's not like painting over a painter's art, because that's a destructive act. The original is now gone and "destroyed". This would be more akin to making a sketch of the artwork to show a different composition (or whatever). If a painting student makes a copy of the Mona Lisa, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo? I would say not. It a sign of respect that the image is worth the time and effort one puts into discussing it. It's just that the "discussion" is in a visual, not verbal, form.

 

[doxx]

If a painting student makes a copy of the Mona Lisa, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo?

that would be a physical, still self-made copy of a painting to learn
or imitate the style. Which I think is a good approach. If you want
a picture similar to mine -take your camera.

back on topic:
The downside of the internet is that it's too easy to download a
picture and alter it. If a person would get to see the actual print,
they would need to critique verbally - and that's the right thing to
do IMHO...

 

[Dew]

for the record, i will never give permission to "re-work" my photos ... ever

revising and reposting is rude ... if u ask the photographer and pm them and they are ok with it .. fine ...

 

[G3]

If a painting student makes a copy of the Mona Lisa, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo?

that would be a physical, still self-made copy of a painting to learn
or imitate the style. Which I think is a good approach. If you want
a picture similar to mine -take your camera.

back on topic:
The downside of the internet is that it's too easy to download a
picture and alter it. If a person would get to see the actual print,
they would need to critique verbally - and that's the right thing to
do IMHO...

There are some people, especially those just learning photography and Photoshop that actually appreciate someone downloading their photo, making adjustments and posting the results along with the steps used to achieve those results. However, not everyone does. The only way to know for sure is to ask.

 

[Osmer_Toby]

personally, i look for hard critique of my work. i sometimes worry that an image i have posted did not get all the "negative" (i think of this as "constructive") comments it could have because people fear offending me, as the poster. this is not to say i am a masochist; i simply desire to become better, and the best way to do that, for me, is to hear the no-holds-barred truth. when i first started posting pics, i may not have been so desirous of this kind of feedback, simply because i needed to feel more confidence in order to take more risk, something necessary for growth. now i want my pics to be torn asunder, poked, prodded, sliced, diced, and pureed. (maybe i can borrow markc's avatar)
at any rate, the whole process of critique is an extremely valuable one. giving criticism actually helps the person giving, as well as the person receiving- for to learn something thoroughly, you need to teach it to someone else. too, i have found that reading the critique for photos other than my own has helped me tremendously. understanding how someone else goes about evaluating an image gives valuable insight for me not only when i critique others- i find that concepts i have encountered and pondered in these fora actually percolate to my consiousness while i am doing my own work.
i find this forum to be one of the best on the web- the mix of personalities is great, as is the level of expertise. in fact, i find myself intimidated anew these days, simply because the level of talent, even from obvious beginners, tends to be extremely high here. (is it just me,or is this rise in quality of pics posted noticeable to anyone else?)

 

[Dew]

i have not noticed a rise in quality of the photos here toby .. i find it to be exactly the opposite :? ... which makes me feel like its almost time for me to move on ... i think the technical info here is great ... so i stay

i need to keep learning and growing and not hit a brick wall ... i find myself looking at websites of photographers to enrich and inspire me ... but im not finding it here in the "post your photos" section

there are a handful of photographers here that i inquire with about some projects that im interested in (thanks y'all .. u know who u are) ...

 

[Osmer_Toby]

i have not noticed a rise in quality of the photos here toby .. i find it to be exactly the opposite

really? hmmm. i don't mean to say we don't still have the (how shall i put this delicately?) "beginner" posting here, cause some of the stuff is kinda weak. however, i see alot of newbies posting stuff that blows my stuff away. and there are definitely some extremely talented regulars posting here- you, your husband, vonmeister, shark, gdavis, drdan, voodoo, others that i don't mean to leave out but i'm not gonna list 'em all here.
on a side note, i belong to a couple other fora (shhhhhhh) that target a more advanced user overall- let me know via pm if you wanna check any of them out.

 

[Osmer_Toby]

p.s. dew- how come you didn't respond to my tfp post? i know you've worked with pro models before!

p.p.s. i think this site would be the worse for your leaving- you have quite alot of valuable knowledge to share...

 

[Dew]

u forgot ksmattfish, metroshane, photobug and motcon


dont get me wrong .. this is a great forum for beginners ... there is a lot to learn here ... im not a pro yet (but i will be someday) ... but im not a beginner and i feel the need to be amongst fellow photographers that share a true passion for photography and always wanting to go to the next level ...

i also think just because a person is new to this forum is not exactly new to photography ...

i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough

there are a handful of great photographers here ... i wonder what keeps them going :?

 

[graigdavis]

My old hockey coach always told us that you are only as good as the people you practice with. Dew, I think that is what you are saying.

There is also another side to it. If all the more experienced and more tallented people didnt stick around to help the less tallented, the circle would never complete.

This forum would die if all of the tallented people decided to leave. It would be the blind leading the blind.

 

[Dew]

My old hockey coach always told us that you are only as good as the people you practice with. Dew, I think that is what you are saying.

that is exactly what im saying ... thanks for clarifying that

i try to be helpful and use some of the expertise that i've acquired along the way .. i dont want u guys to think im selfish in any way ... but at the same time, i cant forget about me in the process ..

there are some talented beginners here (and i was a beginner before) ... and u'll notice sometimes i go out of my way to share knowledge with them because i trully beleive they have talent and i will continue to help those that are passionate about it..

but ur right, the blind cant lead the blind .. they'd both get hit by a truck

but i still need to breathe .. i need to go to the promiseland and need the right vehicle that will take me there ... its been a long time coming

 

[vonnagy]

i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough

I think thats great dew but you will be sorely missed should you decide to pack up yer bags and go. I am still learning, i've learned alot of amazing things from your posts. But at least i can check up on your website how ya doing (i promise not to download just look )

Sorry if I offended with reposts & revisions, like I said, it was never in my heart to rude or disrespectful, given what people say here i see that in a new light now. Though someone may posted it somewhere here, kinda wish someone pm'd on it, what's obvious to some people - I usually need a swift kick in the ol' arse to see it for myself. :mrgreen: I have a bad tendency to act first and think later thats gotten me in trouble all my life!

I don't think i've every reposted your work Dew - because i am certain i would have heard a message from ya loud n clear! but I do appreciate you bringing that up - it is an important issue that i obviously haven't given much thought to.

 

[Chase]

dont get me wrong .. this is a great forum for beginners ... there is a lot to learn here ... im not a pro yet (but i will be someday) ... but im not a beginner and i feel the need to be amongst fellow photographers that share a true passion for photography and always wanting to go to the next level ...

i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough

there are a handful of great photographers here ... i wonder what keeps them going :?

This is only my opinion and I could be wrong, but keep in mind that sometimes teachers can learn just as much their students. Helping others to enhance their skills can result in you digging deeper into your own skills and knowledge as well as potentially opening the door for other areas that you may not have explored.

I know that in the computer field, my experiences with teaching various levels of computer users had a major impact on my personal knowledge in the field. Helping people that knew less than me pushed me to continue expanding my skills and knowledge and often raised questions that I was humbled by.

Just my 2 cents...

<---somehow I knew I would get a lot of use out of this little guy!

 

[ksmattfish]

oops: Sorry if I offended with reposts & revisions, like I said, it was never in my heart to rude or disrespectful, given what people say here i see that in a new light now. Though someone may posted it somewhere here, kinda wish someone pm'd on it, what's obvious to some people - I usually need a swift kick in the ol' arse to see it for myself. :mrgreen: I have a bad tendency to act first and think later thats gotten me in trouble all my life!

It's okay, Vonn, you're such a nice guy I can't imagine anyone taking too much offense. To me, "correcting" or editing someone's photo without the photographer asking them to is sort of like trespassing. Does it really hurt anyone? Probably not, but it's still not considered polite. There are many photo boards that expressly prohibit it.

I can see where Dew is coming from, but at the same time, if everyone gets up and leaves when they think there is nothing more to learn, then how will this forum get any better? Everything must start somewhere, and although I frequent other forums where I run into folks who are doing more of the kind of stuff I do (traditional BW darkroom), I find the attitude on this forum to be really positive, and I like that a lot. I have to admit, I come here more to socialize about photography than to learn. Although I do learn, especially about digital (thanks again, Doxx), and I think that there is a lot of learning potential in looking at "amateur" work. Dew, if you need to check out other waters, then I encourage you to do so, never limit your learning, but please don't ever leave us completely.