Food Photography Question?

[Steve5D]

How can you say what he's concerned about ? And assuming its a small business when its not. Your assuming all these things from no where.. Portraying that's he's trying to get by and just earn a living and he's not being greedy.. Where in actual fact he has more than 1 restaurant and they are thriving. So don't know where your getting your poor business man concerned about the health of his business.. And at the end of the day you don't know the conversation I had with him what he said or how he came accross.. I think I have a better judgement of if he's greedy or not after the conversation I had with him.. You shouldn't assume

Yeah, because I've never done this before.

In the same post in which you tell me that I shouldn't assume, you present your assumption that he's well off. You seem to believe that having more than one restaurant equates to wild success. It doesn't, and I know more than one restaurant owner, with more than one restaurant, who would vehemently disagree with you.

You're not the guy for this job. You can't approach a job with the mindset that the client is wealthy and greedy, but it's pretty clear that's the conclusion you've reached. The bottom line is that you're not prepared to show him that there's a value in what you can provide. If you don't do that, there's no reason for him to agree with you, and certainly no reason for him to ever hire you.

You take issue with his being "greedy", yet you were willing to do the gig for free if he gave you more time to do the shoot, thereby further enabling the very greed you say you have such a problem with.

And how can I say what he's concerned with? Well, I own a small business. I have many friends who own small businesses, including restaurants. I know what our concerns are. I've also worked for small businesses, both as an employee and a contractor. I've watched the money come in and the money go out. I've made the decisions for what to buy for my business and what not to buy. I've worked with small business owners as a vendor, watching them struggle with choosing what items to stock and what not to stock. I've worked with them to show them that it was smart to stock what I was selling, while being mindful of the fact that even my biggest, multi-million dollar clients didn't have bottomless pockets. Along with being a pretty good photographer and having some business smarts, I've learned to read people and be proactive to getting them to see things my way, instead of having to react to them wanting me to see things their way.

In short, I have what you may be lucky enough to have one day: Experience...

No I was doing it for free from the beginning not if he gave me more time.. And I'm not assuming he is wealthy, I know he is. I live in a small enough town everyone knows everyone and he's known for being rich with his huge house and wealthy family let alone his business being jam packed.. And I did explain to him why I needed more time and like I said before he already knows why he wants the images to attract more business and to hang in the restaurant.. And with the experience thing its not to do with luck everyone gains experience.. Through trial and error. And as for you saying that I approaches the job with the mindset of him being wealthy and greedy firstly I know he is wealthy and second I didn't think he was greedy until it got to the point when he started saying about wasting food.

Whatever. You're ill-prepared for this undertaking.

Here's the bottom line: He comes to you. You tell him how you need to shoot it. He either agrees or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you move on; no harm no foul.

A former employer of mine bought a Hawker 850XP for $7 million. The business bought that. It made sense for the business to spend that money on a jet. We could get from San Diego to New York in a little over four hours. Some jet salesman somewhere was able to convince the owners of the company that it was a wise investment.

The two owners of the company also happen to be fabulously wealthy. One has a fleet of Porsches, and he keeps them in a warehouse right next to his six Ferraris. The other keeps a fully loaded Land Cruiser in Asia for when he feels like going camping. He bought a boat and wrote a check for it for $1.2 million. Both of them, though, watch their money very closely. If they don't believe there's a good reason to spend money, they won't do it.

Is that greed?

No, it's called "being smart".

I'm not saying that the restaurant owner is a genius, but he needs to be shown why there's a value in him spending the money on food for you to photograph. Simply put, you've failed to show him that value. Instead of accepting that you may well have fallen short, you lay the blame on him for being "greedy". I'm confident he could be turned to your way of thinking, providing it was someone other than you trying to turn him. I'm not trying to be demeaning, but you clearly don't have the chops for that...

 

[epeddy1]

Whatever. You're ill-prepared for this undertaking.

Here's the bottom line: He comes to you. You tell him how you need to shoot it. He either agrees or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you move on; no harm no foul.

A former employer of mine bought a Hawker 850XP for $7 million. The business bought that. It made sense for the business to spend that money on a jet. We could get from San Diego to New York in a little over four hours. Some jet salesman somewhere was able to convince the owners of the company that it was a wise investment.

The two owners of the company also happen to be fabulously wealthy. One has a fleet of Porsches, and he keeps them in a warehouse right next to his six Ferraris. The other keeps a fully loaded Land Cruiser in Asia for when he feels like going camping. He bought a boat and wrote a check for it for $1.2 million. Both of them, though, watch their money very closely. If they don't believe there's a good reason to spend money, they won't do it.

Is that greed?

No, it's called "being smart".

I'm not saying that the restaurant owner is a genius, but he needs to be shown why there's a value in him spending the money on food for you to photograph. Simply put, you've failed to show him that value. Instead of accepting that you may well have fallen short, you lay the blame on him for being "greedy". I'm confident he could be turned to your way of thinking, providing it was someone other than you trying to turn him. I'm not trying to be demeaning, but you clearly don't have the chops for that...

Lol at going from spending money on a burger to private jets. Don't get too carried away defending your opinion.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call him greedy because of this situation. Greed is wanting everything and more. I'd call this guy extremely and unreasonably frugal.

 

[Steve5D]

Lol at going from spending money on a burger to private jets. Don't get too carried away defending your opinion.

The point being made is that, regardless of the amount of money, a wise business owner won't spend it unless he sees a value in it. The OP has illustrated that he's failed to show this particular business owner that there's a value in what can be provided to him. The reason the business owner hasn't seen that value isn't because he's greedy, but because the OP hasn't been able to show him the value...

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call him greedy because of this situation. Greed is wanting everything and more. I'd call this guy extremely and unreasonably frugal.

I get the "extremely" part, but unreasonable? As much as I think it would serve the guy well to throw down a few bucks for what will amount to photo supplies, the fact remains that it's his business.

The OP has said the business is thriving, so he must be doing something right...

 

[epeddy1]

The point being made is that, regardless of the amount of money, a wise business owner won't spend it unless he sees a value in it. The OP has illustrated that he's failed to show this particular business owner that there's a value in what can be provided to him. The reason the business owner hasn't seen that value isn't because he's greedy, but because the OP hasn't been able to show him the value...

Getting a bit personal here. Maybe the owner is not capable of understanding the value because he's unreasonably frugal, and our fellow photographer did everything he could. Way to stick up for your fellow forum members and photographers. I see a lot of unfriendliness towards each other on this forum. Quite unusual. Gives the photography community (which I'm a new member of) a bad wrap.

I get the "extremely" part, but unreasonable? As much as I think it would serve the guy well to throw down a few bucks for what will amount to photo supplies, the fact remains that it's his business.

Yes, it is unreasonable. Borderline unethical. I wouldn't want the food I ordered at a restaurant sitting on a counter unbeknownst to me getting photographed before it got served and I ate it. There would be sanitary and quality issues with the final product.

And a reasonable business owner would shell out some assets for a marketing campaign; amount depending on how much he thinks the marketing is worth. This guy demonstrates that it is worth zero assets to him (to which you agree). If it's worth zero to him, why ask in the first place? Because he's being unreasonable.

The OP has said the business is thriving, so he must be doing something right...

Something right <> Everything right

 

[table1349]

It is also quite possible that the owner has no clue about food photography. There are several tricks to making the photographed "food" look spectacular. Often the food is not what it appears to be. Don't want runny ice cream, use shortening. Doesn't melt at room temp. You can color it, you can add fruit, chocolate or nuts too it. Want a juicy looking steak, a light spritz of glycerin. Neither really customer friendly. Good appetizing food photography is well planned and well set up. It is not a rush job shooting something that was just prepared.

Frankly, most restaurants have poor presentation these days. Not the kind that is friendly to advertizing. Is I were the OP I would pass on the job if the owner insists on it being shot as he wants.

 

[Steve5D]

Getting a bit personal here. Maybe the owner is not capable of understanding the value because he's unreasonably frugal, and our fellow photographer did everything he could.

Given the overtly defensive nature of his posts, I doubt that's the case...

Way to stick up for your fellow forum members and photographers.

Gosh, yeah, I guess I missed the part in the rules where it said we had to pat each other on the head while singing "Kumbaya". That accomplishes nothing. It's impossible to be a success if you don't realize when you screw up. If I see some fault in how someone is approaching something, I'll point it out. I don't feel compelled to "stick up" for anyone, nor do I feel the need to immediately defer to someone simply because he's on a particular forum that I'm on.

That's just silly...

I see a lot of unfriendliness towards each other on this forum. Quite unusual. Gives the photography community (which I'm a new member of) a bad wrap.

Well, I guess you're gonna' have to deal with that. It is what it is. For the record, this is actually one of the less friendly forums I've found...

Yes, it is unreasonable. Borderline unethical. I wouldn't want the food I ordered at a restaurant sitting on a counter unbeknownst to me getting photographed before it got served and I ate it. There would be sanitary and quality issues with the final product.

I think we actually agree on this point. I thought the point being made is that it was unethical to not invest the money in the business. I don't find it particularly unethical to have someone take a quick snapshot of the food just before the server picks it up. I don't see where sanitation and "quality issues" would come into play if shot how the business owner wants it shot...

And a reasonable business owner would shell out some assets for a marketing campaign; amount depending on how much he thinks the marketing is worth. This guy demonstrates that it is worth zero assets to him (to which you agree). If it's worth zero to him, why ask in the first place? Because he's being unreasonable.

He needs to be educated. The OP isn't the guy to do that. The fact that the OP didn't convince him of the value in no way suggests that the restaurant owner can't be convinced of it...

Something right <> Everything right

Not sure what your point is here. The business is thriving. It's not thriving because the owner is making mistakes. That's not how business works...

 

[tirediron]

Okay, okay... Let's remember that this the ASPIRING PROFESSIONALS forum, and if you're unclear, please refresh yourself n the guidelines for this particular forum!

 

[Steve5D]

If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.

And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show those images to the business owner.

At that point, I've done as much as I can.

Simply telling the owner that I need more time is not doing as much as I can. Showing him what I can do if given more time is...

 

[vintagesnaps]

It's not like you're going to change the client, he runs his business the way he runs it. But like Steve said you'd need to show him what you could do and what it would take to get it done. If that doesn't work for him then he may need to find another photographer. I think the lack of experience doing food photography is the problem because it takes understanding what you're doing to be able to explain it; probably developing the specific necessary skills would be helpful to be able to do this.

 

[danial]

If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.

And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show those images to the business owner.

At that point, I've done as much as I can.

Simply telling the owner that I need more time is not doing as much as I can. Showing him what I can do if given more time is...

Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway.. Instead the owner could have taken my word for it even tho I haven't done food photography before I have more knowledge than him.. And he contacted me because someone I previously took images for recommended me to him. And your comment that your confident that he could have been turned provided it was someone other than me I'd love to see you convince him and go through all the work u said you would have done and not get paid at the end.. And I was very friendly to him I posted it very blunt here just to get the gyst of the story of what happened. But I love how you say he could have been changed if it were someone other than me yet you don't even know me nice !

 

[Scatterbrained]

If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.

And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show those images to the business owner.

At that point, I've done as much as I can.

Simply telling the owner that I need more time is not doing as much as I can. Showing him what I can do if given more time is...

Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway.. Instead the owner could have taken my word for it even tho I haven't done food photography before I have more knowledge than him.. And he contacted me because someone I previously took images for recommended me to him. And your comment that your confident that he could have been turned provided it was someone other than me I'd love to see you convince him and go through all the work u said you would have done and not get paid at the end.. And I was very friendly to him I posted it very blunt here just to get the gyst of the story of what happened. But I love how you say he could have been changed if it were someone other than me yet you don't even know me nice !

How do you plan on building a portfolio if you won't take the time to practice? Would you let someone cut your hair that had never cut hair before, because she was "pretty sure" she knew how to do it? If you aren't willing to put in the work you're not going to make it. Done right, food photography takes a lot of time, space, and food. Time is money. Opening up space for you to work costs money (opportunity costs). The food that will be used can't be sold so there is that as well. It's more than just the $2.oo cost of the sandwich. If someone wanted me to give them the time, space and food required to photograph my menu they'd better be able to prove they know what they are doing.

That's the purpose of a portfolio. You start at home doing images for yourself. When you have worked out a suitable workflow for a shoot then you take your portfolio and start pitching for some TF work. Similar to how interns and apprentices in other industries work (and used to work in photography). They don't just walk in off the street with no resume or references. They have some sort of relevant education or experience that can be verified, then they work via an internship or apprenticeship to get the rest of the experience needed to take the job (and responsibility) themselves and earn a real paycheck.

 

[danial]

If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.

And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show those images to the business owner.

At that point, I've done as much as I can.

Simply telling the owner that I need more time is not doing as much as I can. Showing him what I can do if given more time is...

Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway.. Instead the owner could have taken my word for it even tho I haven't done food photography before I have more knowledge than him.. And he contacted me because someone I previously took images for recommended me to him. And your comment that your confident that he could have been turned provided it was someone other than me I'd love to see you convince him and go through all the work u said you would have done and not get paid at the end.. And I was very friendly to him I posted it very blunt here just to get the gyst of the story of what happened. But I love how you say he could have been changed if it were someone other than me yet you don't even know me nice !

How do you plan on building a portfolio if you won't take the time to practice? Would you let someone cut your hair that had never cut hair before, because she was "pretty sure" she knew how to do it? If you aren't willing to put in the work you're not going to make it. Done right, food photography takes a lot of time, space, and food. Time is money. Opening up space for you to work costs money (opportunity costs). The food that will be used can't be sold so there is that as well. It's more than just the $2.oo cost of the sandwich. If someone wanted me to give them the time, space and food required to photograph my menu they'd better be able to prove they know what they are doing.

That's the purpose of a portfolio. You start at home doing images for yourself. When you have worked out a suitable workflow for a shoot then you take your portfolio and start pitching for some TF work. Similar to how interns and apprentices in other industries work (and used to work in photography). They don't just walk in off the street with no resume or references. They have some sort of relevant education or experience that can be verified, then they work via an internship or apprenticeship to get the rest of the experience needed to take the job (and responsibility) themselves and earn a real paycheck.

Yes I understand that. That is why I wasn't charging I said id do it for free to build my portfolio that is putting the work in. I didn't go to him looking for work with no portfolio.. as I said before someone that I took photos for before recommended me to him and he took her word and he came to me so it is different. and yes I have let people cut my hair in the past that haven't cut hair before.

you said "If someone wanted me to give them the time, space and food required to photograph my menu they'd better be able to prove they know what they are doing." see that would be them coming to you for work and get paid.So your point isn't valid. the short of it, he wanted me to take images for him, I agreed and said id do it for free as I have no experience in food photography and it can build my portfolio, so im putting in my time work and he is getting free images. He never asked to see my work or portfolio so that wasn't an issue with him.so dunno what your going on about portfolio for.

 

[mmaria]

I haven't read all posts so sorry if I'm asking something that's been asked before, but did you ever (at home or wherever) try to photograph soup, cake, coffee, drinks or something like that?

 

[danial]

I haven't read all posts so sorry if I'm asking something that's been asked before, but did you ever (at home or wherever) try to photograph soup, cake, coffee, drinks or something like that?

I've photographed coffee beans lol

 

[Braineack]

Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway...

That's the attitude!

:violin: