Frustration with 3 light setup.

[Alpha]

Just to give people like you something to whine about.

I am not criticizing you for asking the question. I am criticizing everyone else for not providing what should be a totally automatic answer.

 

[Bossy]

So. Whats the automatic answer? Google it?

 

[kundalini]

.... I am criticizing everyone else for not providing what should be a totally automatic answer.

Please enlighten us Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

[Alpha]

The simple answer is three point lighting and lighting ratios. So either you should explain them sufficiently, or point the OP to something online or in a book about three point lighting and ratios that does. I appreciate that people are trying to be helpful but I am astonished that nobody gave an answer which fundamentally addressed the root of the problem. This is not rocket science. I don't mean this as an attack on anyone in particular, but let's be specific. Here were the answers given:
1. Something about power settings or distance from background, and/or DOF
2. You can do it with three too and you can learn to be creative with the lights
3. Use a flash meter
4. Shadows
5. Background needs to be even
6. Try white paper
7. Here's an example of me doing the thing you can't figure out how to do
8. Light more evenly
9. Who needs three lights?
10. I use four to do what you're trying to do with three
11. Post a diagram
12. Strobist is a waste of time
13. Why are you trying to shoot what you're trying to shoot?
14. Use a modifier as a background

 

[GeorgieGirl]

I don't see that you provided any compelling insight there, Alpha. And I do think that this thread is a pictorial discussion. Don't be such a Troll.

 

[Alpha]

I don't see that you provided any compelling insight there, Alpha. And I do think that this thread is a pictorial discussion. Don't be such a Troll.

Then you can kindly explain how any of the responses I quoted address the fact that the OP seems to not understand lighting ratios or have read up much on three point lighting.

 

[GeorgieGirl]

Then you can kindly explain how any of the responses I quoted address the fact that the OP seems to not understand lighting ratios or have read up much on three point lighting.

He said he was reading, and that he was actively working on understanding. I am going to take that at face value.

If you want to address lighting ratios with him then perhaps that might be an approach that will be beneficial to include.

One thing that I see as an issue overall, and you are the lucky recipient, is the ongoing critique of people's comments, to the extent that comments have little to do with the topic or the OP, but are akin to jargon about what one does not like about another's opinion or post.

I think lighting ratios are a good talking point in this instance. And metering.

 

[jwbryson1]

My understanding on lighting ratios is that the key light should be about 2x the power of the fill light, and the fill light should therefore be about 1/2 the power of the key light. The background light or hair light I was just going to "wing" and see if I can get it to look okay. I think I'm doing 2 things at once however. One, I'm trying to do 3 point lighting (key, fill, hair) and second, I'm trying to get a white background.

Note that this is my first attempt with 3 lights and brand new Cowboy radio units--so this is all manual exposure with a lot of trial and error. Mostly error. :mrgreen:

My problems are 2-fold as I see it. First, I have limited space to work and second, I think I have insufficient lighting to blow out the background.

One suggestion that struck a chord with me was to use 2 lights on the backdrop, one for my key and a reflector for fill. That would eliminate the hair light but at this point, who cares? I'd be happy with a white background.

I think I will move my "studio" to my unfinished basement and buy a white paper backdrop and see if the additional space will permit me to get this more accurate.

I'd post pics but I'd be laughed off the board, so...:lmao:

 

[Alpha]

If you're using two lights at the same power aimed at the background from the same distance, then you can basically count them as one light. So you're really dealing with two lights: one background and one key. I think you're making a mistake by equating power with stops in this situation. That's only the case at 100% efficiency, and the efficiency can change dramatically based on your light source and modifier combination, and distance from subject (or background). In other words, the ratio is correct when the background is two stops brighter, but that doesn't necessarily mean twice as much power. It could mean significantly more than twice as much power depending on your lights, modifiers, and distance. That said, a white background will make life a lot easier if you don't have much power.

 

[tirediron]

My understanding on lighting ratios is that the key light should be about 2x the power of the fill light, and the fill light should therefore be about 1/2 the power of the key light.

Lighting ratios can be whatever you want them to be in order to achieve the desired result. a 2:1 is a good starting point, but don't become trapped into thinking it's the only one.

The background light or hair light I was just going to "wing" and see if I can get it to look okay. I think I'm doing 2 things at once however. One, I'm trying to do 3 point lighting (key, fill, hair) and second, I'm trying to get a white background.

Ehhhh, you're trying to do about ten things at once.
Right now, don't worry about the background. Black, white, grey or purple with yellow polka-dots; who cares? You want the photos to be of the subject, NOT the background. Start with just one light (The fill) and get that positioned correctly. Find a patient subject, have them sit there and keep practicing, adjusting and shooting 'til you get that right. Once you're happy with that, add the key, and repeat. Once you're happy with the fill and key, add the hairlight. The background is easy, and it might simply be, as you say, a matter of too little light power.

I'd post pics but I'd be laughed off the board, so...

No, you won't. Lighting is a vast topic and can be hugely complex. Everyone started somewhere. Pictures will REALLY help others assist.

 

[jwbryson1]

Okay, here are my images SOOC, shot to JPEG. No PP. They suck, and I know that so please don't tell me "damn, those suck" because I already know that.

1.

[/URL] DSC_0276 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]

Image 1: 2 YN 560 speedlights shot into reflective black 45" umbrellas, camera left and camera right. 1 SB-700 on the ground behind the model trying to blow out the background. When I turned up the power on the lighting behind the subject, I think I got a lot of light reflecting back onto her which overexposed her. All triggered by Cowboy radio units.



2.

[/URL] DSC_0268 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


Image 2: YN 560 speedlight on the ground, camera left, about 60 degrees pointing at the back of their heads. SB-700 45 degrees camera right bouncing off the ceiling. YN 560 on the ground behind the models to blow out the background. In this image, I'm not sure I even considered lighting their faces and that is obvious.


3.

[/URL] DSC_0278 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


Image 3: Similar lighting setup to Image 1, but I turned the speedlight horizontal so it was shooting straight at the backdrop and not up on the backdrop. Guesstimated manual exposures---clearly, I used too little power on the key and fill lights.

As I've said before, I think my issues are 2 fold. First, insufficient space to work and Second, insufficient light to blow out the backdrop.

Take your best shots. I can take it. :mrgreen:

 

[tirediron]

Okay, first point. Your subject is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too close to the background. You may, or may not be able to do anything about. Ideally, a separation of 10+ feet is ideal.

1. This one could work (ignoring the background for now). Your key (image left) light is 1-2 stops too high for your exposure. If you're going to do the basic 30 degrees left/right of camera, make sure that you have at least a 1 - 1.5 stop difference.

2. You're close to blowing out the background here, but didn't quite make it. On speedlight into a reflecting umbrella high and 15-20 deg camera right would have nailed this one.

3. Pretty much as per #2.

So, here's what I would do: You clearly don't have the light or space to blow out your background, so go the other way. Crank up your shutter-speed to the maximum you can (1/200 - 1/250 probably) and go for a black background and proper illumination on the subjects.

Determining exposure for multiple lights without a meter is a PIA! I would concentrate on the basics. Start with one light, get that right, add the key, get that right, etc.

 

[jwbryson1]

Okay, first point. Your subject is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too close to the background. You may, or may not be able to do anything about. Ideally, a separation of 10+ feet is ideal.

Exactly. I'm in very limited space which makes it a real PITA. Once I move to the basement, I will have a lot more room to work. Hopefully that will help.

You clearly don't have the light or space to blow out your background, so go the other way. Crank up your shutter-speed to the maximum you can (1/200 - 1/250 probably) and go for a black background and proper illumination on the subjects.

I have taken some decent shots with blacked out background (see below) but was hoping to go the other direction on the kids to learn the white background. I'm going to order some white paper from B&H and return the muslin backdrop.

4. Blacked out background I took a few months ago. I'd like to see how this looks with a white background and some good props.

[/URL] Katelyn Nude Tummy 2-1 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


5.

[/URL] Katelyn Momma 3-1 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[tirediron]

What'cha moanin' about????? Those black-background shots are fine! Okay, so you don't have the room (or power) to "blown white" right now, but clearly you know what you're doing with your lights. #5 is a well exposed shot with both black and white in it; just about the single most difficult exposure challenge in portrait work.

If you do order paper however, order GREY paper, that way you can go white or black easily.

 

[GeorgieGirl]

I remember the Katelyn photo!!! There you go JW...just keep working on the white...its a royal PITA...but a good challenge!