Handholding Shutter Speeds

[skieur]

I find film SLRs easier to shoot with at slower shutter speeds than digital cameras. With a film camera I handheld at 1/8 of a second and did a successful sharp blow up to 16 by 20 inches.

With digital I have found that even 1/50th of a second can be a challenge.

skieur

 

[deanimator]

Had similar success too from time to time...maybe there´s no time to set up with a tripod, or I thought it was worth the risk. But, practise sure helps...
s q U e e z e the shutter and all that...plus, as usayit has already mentioned, a wider lens is also helpful.

One more thing that I don´t has been mentioned: mirror lock-up in SLRs.
This removes one contributor to camera shake: the slap of the mirror as it goes up when you take the shot, and bangs down to close the shot can make a big difference too.

 

[table1349]

Gryphon, if you print a full frame 4x6" and also print a crop of the same photo as 4x6", the crop will show more shake at the equivalent print size. The image is magnified. Now, if you print the cropped photo 1.6x smaller, then they would "appear" roughly the same in terms of visible shake.

Ok, now your going to make me call one of my old collage room mates up and run this by him. He is a mechanical engineer. While I can see some of your argument, I also realize that the film/sensor plane is moving with the lens in the same plane at the same constant velocity. Given that, it seems (I'm not sure here that's why I'm confused) there should be no change in the amount of shake between a full frame with a 200mm lens and a crop frame with the same 200mm lens. A 300mm lens, being a longer focal physical focal length, will magnify the shake. If you are interested I'll let you know what he says and I will try to get it in some form of English instead of the engineeriez he normally speaks.

 

[alrey]

Ok, now your going to make me call one of my old collage room mates up and run this by him. He is a mechanical engineer. While I can see some of your argument,

Haha would a Mechanical Engineer really be the person to go to regarding an optics question? Wouldn't a Physicist be a better choice?

I also realize that the film/sensor plane is moving with the lens in the same plane at the same constant velocity.

I think we can assume the film/sensor and the lens are on parallel planes, not the same plane. Also, nothing says their velocity is either constant or the same; take, for example, a rotational "shake" with the axis through the sensor, making the sensor stationary and the lens accelerating around it. Kinda like we do on purpose sometimes, when "panning" with a subject. Not all shakes are just side to side, which is why the in-body stabilization systems in the K100D and Alpha have to account for movement in the X and Y direction, as well as ϑ.

Given that, it seems (I'm not sure here that's why I'm confused) there should be no change in the amount of shake between a full frame with a 200mm lens and a crop frame with the same 200mm lens.

The total shake won't increase, but if you take a crop, and then magnify it to be the same size as the uncropped shot (as was being suggested), then any shake will be magnified along with it.

What is being said is that your DSLR sensor is a "crop" of a full frame 35mm. If you print both at 4x6", the shake will be more noticeable in the DSLR version, since it represents a Crop -> Magnification of the 35mm shot.

A 300mm lens, being a longer focal physical focal length, will magnify the shake. If you are interested I'll let you know what he says and I will try to get it in some form of English instead of the engineeriez he normally speaks.

Don't worry, I speak engineer just fine

 

[Jon, The Elder]

Eastw77.....while the Measurebators continue their discussion......it obviously is dependent on how long you can hold STEADY and be consistant.

The old manuals used to advise that anything longer than 1/30 sec, need support. I could never get better than 1/60 with certainty.

As I shoot action sport, I'm up in the area of at least 1/750 to 1/1250 of a second, so I seldom have need to get in the "iffy" range.

 

[Neuner]

Haha would a Mechanical Engineer really be the person to go to regarding an optics question? Wouldn't a Physicist be a better choice?

What is being said is that your DSLR sensor is a "crop" of a full frame 35mm. If you print both at 4x6", the shake will be more noticeable in the DSLR version, since it represents a Crop -> Magnification of the 35mm shot.

Don't worry, I speak engineer just fine

Well, as someone with a Mechanical Engineering degree I can say that, yes, we can answer optical questions. We are the jack-of-all-trades engineering studying chemical, structural, metallurgical, electrical, civil engineering and physics. I studied optics, didn't you?

Anyways...the size of the sensor does not affect the amount of 'shake' or vibration, but it is as stated, that it is more noticeable due to the magnification.

 

[alrey]

Well, as someone with a Mechanical Engineering degree I can say that, yes, we can answer optical questions. We are the jack-of-all-trades engineering studying chemical, structural, metallurgical, electrical, civil engineering and physics. I studied optics, didn't you?

Well sure, if by "studied" you mean "had a dozen or so lectures on the subject over a couple semesters of general physics." It's all geometry anyways, I was mostly joking. Obviously any kind of engineer is going to be able figure out some basic optics, even without explicitly emphasizing, and ME's are no exception.

Didn't mean any offense. Hug? :hugs:

(Sorry I just saw the smiley and couldn't resist.)

 

[usayit]

sheesh.... this isn't a contest of titles or degrees...

For me a basic understanding of lecture was covered in high school.. and nothing here really goes beyond that level.

 

[deanimator]

I dunno why anyone would think it was even necessary to get into debates about whether or not an engineer could figure this out.

Let´s see what we´ve got for hand-holding so far:
* Longer lenses require faster minimum shutter speeds....and therefore wider angles = slower
* Non-mirror cameras (rangefinders and non DSLRs) a bit slower is ok
* Non-full frame sensors = not as slow as full-frame
* Use mirror lock-up if possible
* Pay attention to posture, breathing, how you hold the camera

The rule of thumb is just that...a rule of thumb. It doesn´t work for everyone, or every camera...do some tests and keep a tripod handy and experiment with the tricks and tips already mentioned.

 

[deanimator]

@ usayit :cheers:

 

[alrey]

sheesh.... this isn't a contest of titles or degrees...

Ack, sorry I didn't mean it like that. I'm not a physicist, and I'm not qualified to go in depth regarding optics. Those dozen or so lectures are long since forgotten.

Let's all follow deanimators lead, no reason he and usayit should have all the fun :cheers:

 

[deanimator]

Aw shucks...we are all buddies here.

Let´s all head to the pub...a couple of beers and you´ll be as steady as a rock (and the glass makes a handy "tripod" anyway)

 

[Neuner]

Didn't mean any offense. Hug? :hugs:

(Sorry I just saw the smiley and couldn't resist.)

What the hell just happened!!? In just a couple of minutes this thing gets blown Way out of proportion. I think Alrey and I are the only ones on the same page!

No offense was taken, just being informative (Engineers are such mis-understood creatures) is all. I think everyone just needs to calm down.....breath.....deeper breathes....that's good....okay now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[doenoe]

i have got nothing to say really, i just came in for the beer

 

[alrey]

Aw shucks...we are all buddies here.

Let´s all head to the pub...a couple of beers and you´ll be as steady as a rock (and the glass makes a handy "tripod" anyway)

I think the next argument is going to have to be about whether a glass of beer should be categorized as a tripod or a monopod :nerd: