Hertz - is this even possible? (And everybody else too) :)

Discussion in 'Beyond the Basics' started by DocFrankenstein, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. DocFrankenstein

    DocFrankenstein Clinically Insane?

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    I am beginning to be drawn into MF.
    I am high. I've shot a roll with hasselblad. :)

    I think I am starting to understand why you have your Rolley. I bet u knew it would happen. :oops:

    The question is:
    I want a camera with tilt/shift and well as swing, but I want it to be medium format... or accept 120 film.

    Ideally it would be cheap, small and with great optics. :) ;)

    What are my options? I am toying with the idea of getting a 4*5 camera and modifying it to accept MF back of some sort. I should really be able to tilt/shift it, cause the image circle is large. But I'm afraid that'd be too expensive, and the normal 4*5 lens would become a telephoto for the MF, won't it?

    I think I am destined to be a camera collector...
     
  2. ksmattfish

    ksmattfish Now 100% DC - not as cool as I once was, but still

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    You don't have to modify a 4x5 camera to accept a medium format roll film back; there are many varieties of 120/220 roll film backs for 4x5 cameras.

    There are also a number of medium format view cameras, press cameras, and field cameras available that are just like 4x5 cameras, but slightly smaller.

    Your problem is that your are going to find that movements and small (compared to 35mm and medium format) don't often go together. And great optics don't come cheap.

    Your best bet for cheap is a Century Graphic. You'll want to do some research to see if it has the movements you want. They usually come with a press lens, which are very decent most of the time, but you can get better glass for them. Ebay always has a variety, and they often sell for well under $200.

    http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/century-graphic.html

    Check out other Graflex cameras at

    www.graflex.org
     
  3. Mitica100

    Mitica100 Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    [​IMG]

    How about a FUJI GX680 II ? It has some front movements but it's not a cheap MF camera. You might be better off with a compact 4x5.​
     
  4. terri

    terri Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    bwahahaha!!!!!! :twisted: For yet another, the light dawns....

    See you in the Collector's Forum, Doc. :thumbup:
     
  5. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    The Fuji is a lovely camera.

    But don't discount camera movements on 35mm.
    Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Leica and others make lenses for 35mm that have shift facility for converging verticals. You can also get lenses that have other (if limited) movement. But they ain't cheap.
    http://www.digitalfotoclub.com/products3/964585815.asp
    www.robertwhite.co.uk/nikon.htm#Label07
    http://photosig.pcphotoreview.com/35mm Primes/Nikon/PRD_99064_3111crx.aspx
    Google the others.

    There are a number of medium format cameras that give you the facility of camera movements. But they are limited in comparison with a technical 5x4. You need to work out what exactly you need and what you need to achieve it. One option is to get a 120 back for a 5x4 but it tends to be a cumbersome approach.

    But welcome to the camera fetishist club - Matts your best guide here. He is far better informed about cameras than I am.

    (By the way - my medium formats are Mamiyas. I just like them)
     
  6. DocFrankenstein

    DocFrankenstein Clinically Insane?

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    But wouldn't then the large format lens act as telephoto on MF back? How do u deal with that?
    Like this?
    [​IMG]

    Size isn't much of an issue... Optics. The prices bite, but that's life.
    I'll check those out.

    :D I'm just starting though.

    Do u mean FUJI GX 680 III ? BH says II doesn't have perspective control.
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=153506&is=REG
    Are there any MF cameras with this design?
    [​IMG]

    I don't particularly or actually need any perspective control. It's just a hobby that eats my bank account and time. :)

    I want to experiment with MF and perspective control... but I really don't want to go bigger than MF because I virtually have no experience with film and printing... let alone large format.

    Well... I didn't expect it to be portable... as long as it weighs less than 20 kilos it would be ok.
    Thank you.

    I try to read up on in google
     
  7. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    Strangely, the standard lens on a 5x4 doesn't work as a telephoto when you put a 120 back on. What you are doing is taking a two-and-a-quarter inch section of the 5x4 image. Its like taking a 5x4 and only using a square in the middle.
    The main drawback of this set-up is that it works just like a 5x4 - you have to do all the focussing and framing before you put the back on - you don't get TTL like a MF camera so it's only really any good for studio. Roll film backs are always found gathering dust in a cupboard.
    With MF cameras with movements - the movements you get are only a fraction of what a large format can do (the picture you posted is of a technical 5x4 [looks a little like a Linhof]). They are designed for only small corrections and are usually used for architecture and interiors.
    Halfway house is a 5x4 field camera. It folds up so it is portable and has a greater range of movement than MF (but not nearly as much as a technical).
    With movements on a camera the limit is set by the covering power of the lens. Normal 35mm and MF lenses just cover the neg area. A top end 5x4 or 10x8 lens can cover more than 10x the neg area to alow a huge degree of movement. But the optics are horrendously expensive. Nearly all the pros I have known have only ever owned one 10x8 lens - even when 90% of their work is shot on that format. If you need another lens you hire it (you are looking at $1,000 and upwards to buy).
     
  8. ksmattfish

    ksmattfish Now 100% DC - not as cool as I once was, but still

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    If you are using the standard 150mm for 4x5 with a 6x6 or 6x7 back then yes, it would be longer than the standard focal length for those lenses, but you can get a 90mm lens, which would be wide angle for 4x5, but normal for the medium format.

    If you set your tripod up in exactly the same spot, and take the same pic with a 90mm lens on a 35mm camera, a medium format camera, and a 4x5 camera you would be able to lay the 35mm neg over the med format neg, and they would match, except the med format neg would have a wide angle of view (more around the edges). And you could then do the same thing with the 4x5 neg. What is in the 35mm neg would be identical to the centers of the larger formats.

    The camera you have pictured is a monorail view camera, and yes they come in medium format size. I think you will find that the medium format sizes are often more expensive than a 4x5 monorail. In fact, if weight isn't too much of an issue, there are several varieties of older, steel 4x5 monorail cameras that regularly sell for less than $200. Mine cost $75 in great condition. They will take any lens that can be mounted to a lensboard (I make my own lensboards), and most varieties of 4x5 film holders and roll film backs (6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12, and there are even some 6x17 backs).

    If you want to play with movements a lot, then a monorail is the way to go.

    Here is a link with more info on cheap monorails. Besides Graflex, you will find that very similar (made of steel rather than aluminum) cameras under the Kodak, Calumet, and Omega brand names. Mine is a Calumet.

    http://graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/
     
  9. DocFrankenstein

    DocFrankenstein Clinically Insane?

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    Thank you. I'll be hunting for monorail LF camera then.

    If I understand this correctly...
    This 150mm lens is better because it has large coverage... and allows for large movements:
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36888&is=GREY

    While this one doesn't:
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36887&is=USA

    Hence the four times difference in price. But both of them can cover 8*10 ?

    Also... how do I print a 4*5? Can I use the same lens I use in the camera?

    I'm assuming 75$ for for the camera only?
     
  10. ksmattfish

    ksmattfish Now 100% DC - not as cool as I once was, but still

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    The cheaper lens is for 4x5. It might get close to covering 5x7, but it's made to cover 4x5 with room for movements. The expensive lens is for 8x10 with movements. A normal lens for 8x10 is 300mm.

    You might be able to use the same lens, but a used 135mm or 150mm enlarging lens goes pretty cheap these days. Do you have an enlarger that can do 4x5? There is a device called a Graflarger that allows you to print with the same Speed Graphic camera you shoot with. I've never used one, but I like the idea.

    Yes, $75 for the camera body with no lens.
     
  11. DocFrankenstein

    DocFrankenstein Clinically Insane?

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    No enlarger and no darkroom either.

    I want to get into LF and as you see, just starting to discover what it is about.

    However, I need to do this before going LF:
    1) Learn to shoot and develop 35mm film
    2) Learn to print pics from that 35mm film
    3) Build my own darkroom, get enlarger... etc...

    Then graduate to LF or MF. Or is there anything else?
     
  12. Hertz van Rental

    Hertz van Rental TPF Noob!

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    People tend to get locked in to the idea of bigger format = better print quality.
    Whilst this is true there are other, just as important, differences. Especialy when working in the studio.
    I found that shooting MF was a lot like shooting 35mm just that you could see more in the viewfinder. This allows you to use the frame more and to better advantage. It also means that when you go back to 35mm you are aware of far more going on in the image and you approach shooting in a different way.
    Moving up to 5x4 requires a whole different approach. You suddenly become aware of all the space in an image - not just the space surrounding objects but the space they occupy. You also get to see how the objects interact with light. I had to learn a whole new way of looking, but fortunately I had some excellent teachers who showed me how to do it.
    When I moved up to 10x8 I approached it like it was 5x4. It didn't work. 10x8 is different again and once more I had to learn how to see and how to use all the elements in a picture.
    When you go back to 35mm - after the shock of how small it is - you find that you are seeing far more in there than you ever did and your whole approach to small format has changed radicaly.
    This may all sound a little Zen, but I have discussed it at length with other photographers and I remember the experiences shared with my contemporaries as we learned what Photography was really about, moving up the formats. And we all experienced the same things.
    The best course of action if you want to learn about Photography is to find a good course and/or get a job as an assistant. It really does help to have someone around to show you the way.

    On an academic note. Matt and I seem to be contradicting each other with regards to 6x6 backs on a 5x4 and what the lens is doing. But we are not.
    If you look at it as if you are shooting 6x6 then a standard 5x4 lens would work as a telephoto.
    If you look at it as if you are shooting 5x4 but using a 6x6 back to record just part of the image then a standard 5x4 lens works as a standard.
    It's one of those strange situations where the answer you get depends upon your point of view. But lets not argue about it or we will just be chasing our tails. ;-)
     

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