Hertz - is this even possible? (And everybody else too) :)

[DocFrankenstein]

I am beginning to be drawn into MF.
I am high. I've shot a roll with hasselblad.

I think I am starting to understand why you have your Rolley. I bet u knew it would happen.

The question is:
I want a camera with tilt/shift and well as swing, but I want it to be medium format... or accept 120 film.

Ideally it would be cheap, small and with great optics.

What are my options? I am toying with the idea of getting a 4*5 camera and modifying it to accept MF back of some sort. I should really be able to tilt/shift it, cause the image circle is large. But I'm afraid that'd be too expensive, and the normal 4*5 lens would become a telephoto for the MF, won't it?

I think I am destined to be a camera collector...

 

[ksmattfish]

You don't have to modify a 4x5 camera to accept a medium format roll film back; there are many varieties of 120/220 roll film backs for 4x5 cameras.

There are also a number of medium format view cameras, press cameras, and field cameras available that are just like 4x5 cameras, but slightly smaller.

Your problem is that your are going to find that movements and small (compared to 35mm and medium format) don't often go together. And great optics don't come cheap.

Your best bet for cheap is a Century Graphic. You'll want to do some research to see if it has the movements you want. They usually come with a press lens, which are very decent most of the time, but you can get better glass for them. Ebay always has a variety, and they often sell for well under $200.

http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/century-graphic.html

Check out other Graflex cameras at

www.graflex.org

 

[Mitica100]

​

How about a FUJI GX680 II ? It has some front movements but it's not a cheap MF camera. You might be better off with a compact 4x5.​

 

[terri]

I think I am destined to be a camera collector...

bwahahaha!!!!!! :twisted: For yet another, the light dawns....

See you in the Collector's Forum, Doc. :thumbup:

 

[Hertz van Rental]

The Fuji is a lovely camera.

But don't discount camera movements on 35mm.
Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Leica and others make lenses for 35mm that have shift facility for converging verticals. You can also get lenses that have other (if limited) movement. But they ain't cheap.
http://www.digitalfotoclub.com/products3/964585815.asp
www.robertwhite.co.uk/nikon.htm#Label07
http://photosig.pcphotoreview.com/35mm+Primes/Nikon/PRD_99064_3111crx.aspx
Google the others.

There are a number of medium format cameras that give you the facility of camera movements. But they are limited in comparison with a technical 5x4. You need to work out what exactly you need and what you need to achieve it. One option is to get a 120 back for a 5x4 but it tends to be a cumbersome approach.

But welcome to the camera fetishist club - Matts your best guide here. He is far better informed about cameras than I am.

(By the way - my medium formats are Mamiyas. I just like them)

 

[DocFrankenstein]

You don't have to modify a 4x5 camera to accept a medium format roll film back; there are many varieties of 120/220 roll film backs for 4x5 cameras.

But wouldn't then the large format lens act as telephoto on MF back? How do u deal with that?

There are also a number of medium format view cameras, press cameras, and field cameras available that are just like 4x5 cameras, but slightly smaller.

Like this?

Your problem is that your are going to find that movements and small (compared to 35mm and medium format) don't often go together. And great optics don't come cheap.

Size isn't much of an issue... Optics. The prices bite, but that's life.

Your best bet for cheap is a Century Graphic. You'll want to do some research to see if it has the movements you want. They usually come with a press lens, which are very decent most of the time, but you can get better glass for them. Ebay always has a variety, and they often sell for well under $200.

I'll check those out.

bwahahaha!!!!!! For yet another, the light dawns....

See you in the Collector's Forum, Doc.

I'm just starting though.

How about a FUJI GX680 II ? It has some front movements but it's not a cheap MF camera. You might be better off with a compact 4x5.

Do u mean FUJI GX 680 III ? BH says II doesn't have perspective control.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=153506&is=REG

There are a number of medium format cameras that give you the facility of camera movements. But they are limited in comparison with a technical 5x4.

Are there any MF cameras with this design?

You need to work out what exactly you need and what you need to achieve it.

I don't particularly or actually need any perspective control. It's just a hobby that eats my bank account and time.

I want to experiment with MF and perspective control... but I really don't want to go bigger than MF because I virtually have no experience with film and printing... let alone large format.

One option is to get a 120 back for a 5x4 but it tends to be a cumbersome approach.

Well... I didn't expect it to be portable... as long as it weighs less than 20 kilos it would be ok.

But welcome to the camera fetishist club - Matts your best guide here. He is far better informed about cameras than I am.

Thank you.

I try to read up on in google

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Strangely, the standard lens on a 5x4 doesn't work as a telephoto when you put a 120 back on. What you are doing is taking a two-and-a-quarter inch section of the 5x4 image. Its like taking a 5x4 and only using a square in the middle.
The main drawback of this set-up is that it works just like a 5x4 - you have to do all the focussing and framing before you put the back on - you don't get TTL like a MF camera so it's only really any good for studio. Roll film backs are always found gathering dust in a cupboard.
With MF cameras with movements - the movements you get are only a fraction of what a large format can do (the picture you posted is of a technical 5x4 [looks a little like a Linhof]). They are designed for only small corrections and are usually used for architecture and interiors.
Halfway house is a 5x4 field camera. It folds up so it is portable and has a greater range of movement than MF (but not nearly as much as a technical).
With movements on a camera the limit is set by the covering power of the lens. Normal 35mm and MF lenses just cover the neg area. A top end 5x4 or 10x8 lens can cover more than 10x the neg area to alow a huge degree of movement. But the optics are horrendously expensive. Nearly all the pros I have known have only ever owned one 10x8 lens - even when 90% of their work is shot on that format. If you need another lens you hire it (you are looking at $1,000 and upwards to buy).

 

[ksmattfish]

If you are using the standard 150mm for 4x5 with a 6x6 or 6x7 back then yes, it would be longer than the standard focal length for those lenses, but you can get a 90mm lens, which would be wide angle for 4x5, but normal for the medium format.

If you set your tripod up in exactly the same spot, and take the same pic with a 90mm lens on a 35mm camera, a medium format camera, and a 4x5 camera you would be able to lay the 35mm neg over the med format neg, and they would match, except the med format neg would have a wide angle of view (more around the edges). And you could then do the same thing with the 4x5 neg. What is in the 35mm neg would be identical to the centers of the larger formats.

The camera you have pictured is a monorail view camera, and yes they come in medium format size. I think you will find that the medium format sizes are often more expensive than a 4x5 monorail. In fact, if weight isn't too much of an issue, there are several varieties of older, steel 4x5 monorail cameras that regularly sell for less than $200. Mine cost $75 in great condition. They will take any lens that can be mounted to a lensboard (I make my own lensboards), and most varieties of 4x5 film holders and roll film backs (6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12, and there are even some 6x17 backs).

If you want to play with movements a lot, then a monorail is the way to go.

Here is a link with more info on cheap monorails. Besides Graflex, you will find that very similar (made of steel rather than aluminum) cameras under the Kodak, Calumet, and Omega brand names. Mine is a Calumet.

http://graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/

 

[DocFrankenstein]

Thank you. I'll be hunting for monorail LF camera then.

If I understand this correctly...
This 150mm lens is better because it has large coverage... and allows for large movements:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36888&is=GREY

While this one doesn't:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=36887&is=USA

Hence the four times difference in price. But both of them can cover 8*10 ?

Also... how do I print a 4*5? Can I use the same lens I use in the camera?

I'm assuming 75$ for for the camera only?

 

[ksmattfish]

Hence the four times difference in price. But both of them can cover 8*10 ?

Also... how do I print a 4*5? Can I use the same lens I use in the camera?

I'm assuming 75$ for for the camera only?

The cheaper lens is for 4x5. It might get close to covering 5x7, but it's made to cover 4x5 with room for movements. The expensive lens is for 8x10 with movements. A normal lens for 8x10 is 300mm.

You might be able to use the same lens, but a used 135mm or 150mm enlarging lens goes pretty cheap these days. Do you have an enlarger that can do 4x5? There is a device called a Graflarger that allows you to print with the same Speed Graphic camera you shoot with. I've never used one, but I like the idea.

Yes, $75 for the camera body with no lens.

 

[DocFrankenstein]

No enlarger and no darkroom either.

I want to get into LF and as you see, just starting to discover what it is about.

However, I need to do this before going LF:
1) Learn to shoot and develop 35mm film
2) Learn to print pics from that 35mm film
3) Build my own darkroom, get enlarger... etc...

Then graduate to LF or MF. Or is there anything else?

 

[Hertz van Rental]

People tend to get locked in to the idea of bigger format = better print quality.
Whilst this is true there are other, just as important, differences. Especialy when working in the studio.
I found that shooting MF was a lot like shooting 35mm just that you could see more in the viewfinder. This allows you to use the frame more and to better advantage. It also means that when you go back to 35mm you are aware of far more going on in the image and you approach shooting in a different way.
Moving up to 5x4 requires a whole different approach. You suddenly become aware of all the space in an image - not just the space surrounding objects but the space they occupy. You also get to see how the objects interact with light. I had to learn a whole new way of looking, but fortunately I had some excellent teachers who showed me how to do it.
When I moved up to 10x8 I approached it like it was 5x4. It didn't work. 10x8 is different again and once more I had to learn how to see and how to use all the elements in a picture.
When you go back to 35mm - after the shock of how small it is - you find that you are seeing far more in there than you ever did and your whole approach to small format has changed radicaly.
This may all sound a little Zen, but I have discussed it at length with other photographers and I remember the experiences shared with my contemporaries as we learned what Photography was really about, moving up the formats. And we all experienced the same things.
The best course of action if you want to learn about Photography is to find a good course and/or get a job as an assistant. It really does help to have someone around to show you the way.

On an academic note. Matt and I seem to be contradicting each other with regards to 6x6 backs on a 5x4 and what the lens is doing. But we are not.
If you look at it as if you are shooting 6x6 then a standard 5x4 lens would work as a telephoto.
If you look at it as if you are shooting 5x4 but using a 6x6 back to record just part of the image then a standard 5x4 lens works as a standard.
It's one of those strange situations where the answer you get depends upon your point of view. But lets not argue about it or we will just be chasing our tails. ;-)

 

[DocFrankenstein]

This may all sound a little Zen, but I have discussed it at length with other photographers and I remember the experiences shared with my contemporaries as we learned what Photography was really about, moving up the formats.

A bit confused here. Photography is about moving up the formats? You learned what photography is about while moving up the formats? I think it's the latter, right?

On an academic note. Matt and I seem to be contradicting each other with regards to 6x6 backs on a 5x4 and what the lens is doing. But we are not.

It's ok. I have the Drebel, so after about a thousands posts on the crop factor I got some understanding.

Just didn't know what's considered normal focal length for 4*5 and for MF.

BTW: For studio work. Don't models go blind? I'd imagine the lights are pretty bright, if you shoot at f/32 or f/64

 

[ksmattfish]

Yeah, Hertz and I were saying the same thing, but I do think of it as a telephoto effect. Like he said it's just different ways of wrapping your mind around the same thing. And definately dealing with digital crop factor vs 35mm focal length should have you well prepared to understand it.

"normal" focal lengths

6x4.5cm = 75mm
6x6cm = 80mm
6x7cm = 90mm
6x9cm = 105mm
4x5inch = 150mm
8x10inch = 300mm

I went from 35mm to 4x5 because it's easier (at least I thought so at the time) to find cheap 4x5 equipment than cheap medium format gear. I would agree that using most medium format cameras is very similar to using big 35mm gear. It's still roll film. Sheet film, movements, and the (almost) un-hand holdable size of 4x5 makes it seem very different.

One of the best things you'll learn by using a view camera is that you'll break out of the SLR/DSLR box that the main manufacturers (Canon and Nikon) want to keep you in. Once you realize that there are many, many different and wonderful designs of cameras, and that they all have different strengths and weanesses, and that you can operate them all with a little practice, the world will be your oyster.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

A bit confused here. Photography is about moving up the formats? You learned what photography is about while moving up the formats? I think it's the latter, right?

It is only by working with the larger formats that you can see what is actually going on in the scene you are trying to record. You come to realise that every single element - no matter how small - is essential to the picture. But there is something even more important that you learn.
Keep up with LF and you might eventually see the light - and discover the three Rules.

BTW: For studio work. Don't models go blind? I'd imagine the lights are pretty bright, if you shoot at f/32 or f/64

Good God! You never shoot people with those apertures (or, indeed, with large format if you can help it). You're talking 15kJ or more - unless you use a fast film, which kinda defeats the object.

Large format is for use with still life/landscape.
And my LF lenses go down to f90 (one used to go to f128!).