How low can you go to make money?

[limr]

I dunno, I just see a lot of dead horses in this thread.

 

[480sparky]

..... An attorney who provides free or low cost legal advise for those who can't afford it, is still a "professional", but obviously he can't pay the bills and support his family doing it...........

One absolutely can do so. And there's two methods one can utilize. One is called a Loss Leader. You lose money on the up-front work in hopes the person will come back later and pay full price the next time.

The other is Pro Bono. You provide the services for free for those who cannot afford it, while marking up the cost to those who can to cover it.

Of course, you can't stay in business working for free (or at a loss) all the time. You still need profitable jobs to come along.

 

[smoke665]

One absolutely can do so.

?????? Not sure what you're disagreeing with or if you are, because it seems we are saying the same thing. The use of marketing methods doesn't define if you are a business or a hobby. The ability to make a profit (The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year), is necessary to be defined as a business, otherwise it's a hobby.

 

[480sparky]

One absolutely can do so.

?????? Not sure what you're disagreeing with or if you are, because it seems we are saying the same thing. The use of marketing methods doesn't define if you are a business or a hobby. The ability to make a profit (The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year), is necessary to be defined as a business, otherwise it's a hobby.

Just clarifying a generalization.

 

[waday]

The other is Pro Bono. You provide the services for free for those who cannot afford it, while marking up the cost to those who can to cover it.

One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.

 

[smoke665]

Just clarifying a generalization.

Ok. I think your earlier post about profit being equal to $.01 is more profound then many realize. According to IRS rules, a penny profit qualifies as a business and allows you to deduct all your expenses. If you're only interest is to "pay for your toys", then only doing enough "paid work" to put you over break even is great way to do it. I know several wood turners, carvers, craftsmen, painters, etc. that do this. They have other incomes that pay the bills. This is why my first post said it's more important to define the business. So the answer to the question "how low can you go" depends on your definition of the business model.

 

[tecboy]

I met a photographer for this website. I don't mind being his second shooter. About | Foggy Bay Photos

 

[table1349]

Professional and photographer in the same sentence means zero, zip, zilch, nada. Accomplished and photographer on the other hand does. The sad thing is many of the accomplished photographers have no business sense. It is the much rarer, elusive accomplished photographer that does understand business that survives for any discernible amount of time in the business world.

 

[smoke665]

It is the much rarer, elusive accomplished photographer that does understand business that survives for any discernible amount of time in the business world.

IMO this applies to all business enterprises. In transportation after deregulation anyone with a few thousand dollars for an old truck,trailer and insurance premium could get an authority for hire for $300, and start competing with companies that had a large asset investment. Unfortunately there were willing customers in the form of brokers who would often cut the rates below break even, because they knew these suckers with no knowledge would take them until losses forced them out, and there were always new ones starting up. My cousin and her husband were recently forced to sell their large machine business because the number of little shops with a couple tools and foreign competition cut the margins so thin, they couldn't compete. Sadly many of those little shops have also now gone away.

 

[480sparky]

One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.

Which still, unfortunately, costs money. And that money has to come from somewhere. Either in the form of increasing the cost to other customers, or choosing to live under a bridge and eat ramen noodles every day.

 

[waday]

One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.

Which still, unfortunately, costs money. And that money has to come from somewhere. Either in the form of increasing the cost to other customers, or choosing to live under a bridge and eat ramen noodles every day.

The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good. All volunteer work costs time, effort, and yes, sometimes, money, but believe it or not, some people enjoy giving back to the community.

My wife works pro bono occasionally, and we don't live under a bridge (but we live close to several) and we don't eat ramen noodles every day (but do enjoy going out to eat ramen every now and then).

 

[smoke665]

The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good.

Don't disagree with you, assuming you have some form of "means" that provides the basic necessities. All of us have a responsibility to give back our time and talents to others, in whatever manner we can. Over the years, I've spent literally thousands of unpaid hours as a VF and First Responder, and continue to serve in the department as an adviser and board member, but I was fortunate like you I've always had sufficient income to provide for the necessities. I suspect that was the basis of the earlier comment.

 

[waday]

The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good.

Don't disagree with you, assuming you have some form of "means" that provides the basic necessities. All of us have a responsibility to give back our time and talents to others, in whatever manner we can. Over the years, I've spent literally thousands of unpaid hours as a VF and First Responder, and continue to serve in the department as an adviser and board member, but I was fortunate like you I've always had sufficient income to provide for the necessities. I suspect that was the basis of the earlier comment.

Understand and appreciate your response. I agree that to do pro bono work, one needs at least some financial security to pay the bills. However, pro bono work is not strictly made up by charging others more.

I'm not trying to get snarky, so please don't misunderstand. Pro bono work is essentially voluntarily taking on work for free. We all know this.

What I'm saying is that when it was stated in this thread, it was alongside a definition that indicated that the "free work" was then explicitly made up by charging others extra. If you charge others more as a direct result of "free work", that's not pro bono, at least not to me.

For example, if I were to volunteer for my local community, and I had to take a day off work, I am personally responsible for that time. I make the time up by working four 10 hour days (to get to 40 hours full-time), or I just don't get paid for that day and choose to take the loss. I don't turnaround and charge my clients extra for that time off for increased overhead. I don't raise my multiplier to get more money. I would be volunteering for the public good, so I freely give up that time, which I see as a benefit to the community. If I can't do it financially, then I may choose to volunteer on weekends when I'm not "on-the-clock".

Rather than donating money explicitly, one would be donating time and effort. Yes, that is "equal" to money, but some people enjoy helping out physically rather than financially. An attorney can do things for free that they may normally charge thousands of dollars for (because they have the expertise and the license). Given the right circumstances and the right clients, an attorney may be very willing to help out for free.

 

[pixmedic]

what ive always found odd is the stigma often placed on people by the photography community for having a "part time" photography business.
people dont seem to bat an eye at other part time cottage industries. selling baked goods on the weekend? sure. art pieces in your spare time? no problem.
building computers on the side? hey, everyone's got a friend that does that...
but mention you do photography part time and suddenly it's an issue. you can't possibly be a professional if photography doesn't pay for the house, the car, and all other major expenses.

oh no, someone works part time while their significant other works full time and pays more of the bills....guess they don't count.

as for defining "professional", just give up. thats a pointless and utterly meaningless debate.
i'll say one thing though, the tax office sure considered us "professional" four times a year, regardless of how much money we did or did not make, or what % of the bills were paid by photography work.


my point is...
if you are considering or already using photography as a part time/supplemental means of income....good for you!
absolutely no reason not to make money with something if you have the means to.
as long as you are properly set up to do so within state and county regulations.

 

[JPI]

I liked Nerwin's slight rant.

Yep, like that last paragraph