I have noticed something. Have you?

[mrmacedonian]

@ADrex

Well I mentioned that business is what regulates professional photography but my point was different, so I didn't want to go on any tangents.

Since you mentioned it, I wanted to mention that I looked at Photography degree curiculums around Columbus (Ohio State University, Wright State University, Columbus State Community College) and even in the case of CSCC, the community college, which offeres a 2year degree in Digital Photography, has significant requirements in marketing, business, and communication for just these reasons.

I believe an important distinction is being missed in this threat -- a good photographer versus a successful photographer; not mutually inclusive.

Business has a lot to do with poor/average/mediocre photographers being successful.

 

[Neil S.]

THose who cannot understand that the knowledge of the group ALWAYS, always,always is greater than that of the individual really are not doing much thinking

This is not always true in my opinion.

Bruce Lee was arguably the greatest martial artist of all time.

He felt that the individual martial arts of his day were too limiting, and just created his own.

It is called "Jeet Kune Do" or "Way of the Intercepting Fist".

This style of martial arts removed many of the restrictions that others have long had. It is about tailoring your fighting style to your strengths, and it’s very effective.

This is why he said things like "Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water".

Long story short, the individual martial arts knowledge of one man was greater than that of billions of others throughout the ages.

This is how I see it at least. Feel free to disagree if you wish.

One thing that is a fact here is that you CAN break the mold and create something beautiful. Bruce Lee and countless others have shown us that throughout history.

I would never agree that you can only learn from others, and a collective.

That sounds like the Borg to me lol! Bad news.

Edit: I know you were saying that the group is greater than an individual. What I mean is that Bruce Lee did something new, and his martial arts knowledge surpassed that of the rest of the world at that time. At least in my opinion.

 

[Boomn4x4]

But I do agree with Derrel, these trends are getting real old real fast. I know a lady who is the exact definition of unskilled mom who bought a camera and now thinks she can do senior portraits. And people pay her $180 a session!

So what you are saying is that she CAN do senior portraits.... because people are paying her $180 a session.

If she only "thinks" she can... people wouldn't be paying her.

I think a lot of you guys aren't seeing what is going on here.... If you are that much better of a photographer than these newbs... then why would what these newbs be doing bother you?

I got offered $200, a free bridal suite, free dinner for my wife and I, all the booze we could drink, and a free tank of gas to do a wedding (I turned it down) based off of what someone, whom I've met 3 times in person, saw I had posted on facebook.

You may THINK that an amature who just baught a DSLR a week ago isn't able to do "photography"... but the paying customers say other wise.

 

[misstwinklytoes]

Yep, Boom, you're right.

People pay for what they want. If they don't want to pay $500 and are willing to accept the level of skill of a $180 photographer, they'll do it.

A lot of people feel that way.

 

[inTempus]

Photography is more art than a technical skill. If you have an IQ larger than your own shoe size, and you can read a manual and a book, you can quickly understand and put into practice the basics of photography. As compared to other professions being cited in this discussion, it's relatively low on the "how hard is it" scale in terms of being able to get a proper exposure.

The hard part is developing an eye for what makes a good photograph in many cases, especially as it relates to natural light photography. If you take things to the next level and use lights, things become even more complex, but still... nothing on the order of flying a commercial airliner or conducting an organ transplant.

But I must agree that if you want to learn quickly, reduce the number of mistakes you make, and avoid future bad habits a mentor is a great way to go. It's a time honored tradition, and one that has worked well for countless generations. As with any artistic medium, studying under the guidance of someone respected in the field or whom you admire is a great way to learn how to do things.

The internet is actually a great resource and you can apprentice under more than one accomplished photographer by making use of the medium. To say someone is "self taught" by the internet isn't really accurate. The content on the internet was posted by someone else. The internet by its very nature is interactive. It's not like the information just happened to populate itself out here. If you have access to images, technical information, and even better, the photographers themselves to ask questions of, that is in fact mentoring. You can post images using techniques detailed online, ask questions, get critiques, and take what you've learned to your next shoot. To dismiss the internet as a learning tool is pretty short sighted, IMHO. I find it amusing that so many people who use the internet daily find every opportunity to bash it as a medium in general. In reality the internet has revolutionized the dissemination of information. It is the most powerful information tool our civilization has ever built.

I used the internet to find people in my area I could work with directly. I found a 13 year wedding photographer that's very highly respected in our region who was willing to take me in and show me the ropes. We've shot many times together and I've sat for hours picking his brain. We've become good friends, and we met via the internet.

I've joined several groups that conduct studio photography instructional sessions that I found on the internet. This is where I first learned about studio photography and was able to get hands on experience. I met many very talented people this way, and again, have made many friendships... some virtual and others "real world".

I don't believe the professional landscape is any more polluted today than it was years ago. As JG Coleman noted, it's common for those with more experience to dismiss out of hand the new generation. How many times have we heard stories of the "good old days" by people who compulsively live in the past regardless of the topic? When I was in the Marines, our instructors constantly reminded us just how much harder things were 20 years before us. They too were told by their instructors how only real Marines were produced before their time... it's an endless cycle, one born of an over inflated sense of self worth and ego. As many of us age we assume our skills, experiences, and knowledge are superior to that of the next generation when in reality it's the next generation that brings a new perspective and forces evolution.

Imagine how boring music would be if the Beatles never came on the scene... or Elvis... or Lady Gaga... They pushed the envelope doing things their predecessors thought were ridiculous, talentless, and even the work of the Devil in some cases. Not all new artists will be revolutionary thought leaders, most will wither and die on the vine... as they always have. Some will eek out a meager existence doing ho-humm work, some will excel... some will lose interest and move on to other things.

It's the natural order of things.

 

[Boomn4x4]

You see the above mentioned in every business whether it be landscaping, construction, design, service, etc. There is always someone out there that jumps into a profession based on little knowledge. They then charge cheap pricing undercutting the ones who actually do quality work.

That is not true... they are not "under cutting"... they are keeping them honest, be hit landscaping, construction, design, sevice, etc....

If a landscaper charges $2,000 to install a lawn... and I post on craigs list that I want a lawn installed and get a bid for $500.. and they do the job to my liking, then the landscaper that is charging $2,000 is over charging.

You also see in every business someone who thinks that they have the right to charge someone X amount of dollars even though someone out there is willing to do it for less... and then they will complain that "they aren't getting the quality"... which honestly, is total bull crap 95% of the time anyway.

 

[Boomn4x4]

Photography is more art than a technical skill.

I submit that photography is more business than art skill....

Art is subjective.... in order to be sucessful at it, you need to be able to set your price right, market yourself right, advertise yourself right... and follow through with what you say you are going to do.

I could go our right now with my camera phone... point it straight down and the pavement and take a picture of a rock, print it out on canvas... and with some clever business skills, could sell that picture to thousands of people.

 

[inTempus]

I would never agree that you can only learn from others, and a collective.

That sounds like the Borg to me lol! Bad news.

Edit: I know you were saying that the group was greater than an individual. What I mean is that Bruce Lee did something new, and his martial arts knowledge surpassed that of the rest of the world at that time.

Bruce Lee learned from others in his youth, it is what gave him his base of knowledge from which he built his own skills. Bruce Lee wasn't born a martial artist.

My argument is that the internet can be a tremendously useful tool for learning... a tool which our elders didn't have the benefit of using "back in the day".

Back to your point.

I remember my mom telling me that computers (including calculators) were useless and crippled a persons critical thinking. She believed that engineers used slide rules, pencil and paper to figure things out. She was an engineer for AT&T "back in the day".

My buddy who works for his dad's company had to pull his dad kicking and screaming into the modern age. His dad, an engineer, used a drafting board to design his companies hydraulic pumps. My buddy brought CAD into the organization, much to the angst of his father, years ago. Of course now it's the accepted standard and his far more experienced father was dead nuts wrong... as was my mother. However, my buddy learned his trade from his father, he only expanded upon that base of knowledge using new technologies and processes foreign to his father.

In an ideal setting the old and the new feed off of each other and help each other to grow, learning isn't a one way street. But unfortunately many conceited elders think that their way is the only way and therefore their learning ceased many years ago. They've become stagnant.

 

[inTempus]

Photography is more art than a technical skill.

I submit that photography is more business than art skill....

Art is subjective.... in order to be sucessful at it, you need to be able to set your price right, market yourself right, advertise yourself right... and follow through with what you say you are going to do.

I could go our right now with my camera phone... point it straight down and the pavement and take a picture of a rock, print it out on canvas... and with some clever business skills, could sell that picture to thousands of people.

Assuming one uses photography to earn a living. I don't and likely never will. I've taken money for photography in the past, but that doesn't make it a business for me. I have no aspirations of being a full time photographer. I have a profession that pays the bills, photography is a hobby of mine. If at times that hobby can help pay for itself, great. If not, no loss.

So don't assume all people in this discussion are interested in photography as a primary source of income.

But yes, if you want to run a studio and use photography as a primary source of income, then business skills are likely more critical to your success than being a highly accomplished artist.

I was posting under the assumption that this discussion was centered around the skills necessary to take a high quality image.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You also see in every business someone who thinks that they have the right to charge someone X amount of dollars even though someone out there is willing to do it for less... and then they will complain that "they aren't getting the quality"... which honestly, is total bull crap 95% of the time anyway.

It's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. :lmao:

 

[Neil S.]

I would never agree that you can only learn from others, and a collective.

Bruce Lee learned from others in his youth, it is what gave him his base of knowledge from which he built his own skills. Bruce Lee wasn't born a martial artist.

Obviously Bruce Lee learned from others, that’s clearly not what I said.

"Only" is the key word here.

Another good example of this is Miyamoto Musashi, who is the most legendary Japanese swordsman of all time.

He was said to have possibly trained at a school for a short time, but stopped going at a still young age. Legend has it that years later he went back and defeated the whole school single handed. This may or may not be true though, there isn’t a lot of solid information on it.

He did things his own way, and was able to live to an old age because he was undefeated with the sword, ultimately dying of natural causes at 61.

He created and perfected a double sword fighting style, that when used correctly is extremely powerful. This was not the norm for that time period.

He became so good that he killed many opponents with nothing but a wooden sword.

This was versus men with real metal Japanese swords (Katanas) mind you, that would have sliced his wooden sword through in an instant.

This meant that he was winning on the 1st strike, and didn’t need any more than that.

There was even an instance where he killed a Samurai (who had a sword) with nothing but a wooden boat oar.

He was a wanderer, and did not subscribe to the structured, collective way of doing things.

He was mostly self-taught, and broke the mold of the time with his double sword fighting style.

He was also the greatest swordsman in all of Japanese history.

 

[Aayria]

I've learned that it's much more important and edifying to focus on making your own work speak for itself, and to stop comparing it to every other person with a camera. Make your work stand out, and charge what you feel it deserves. Unless you are looking for a market of people who care more about the best "deal" than they do about the final result.

 

[inTempus]

I would never agree that you can only learn from others, and a collective.

Bruce Lee learned from others in his youth, it is what gave him his base of knowledge from which he built his own skills. Bruce Lee wasn't born a martial artist.

Obviously Bruce Lee learned from others, that’s clearly not what I said.

"Only" is the key word here.

I know you like to play a game of semantics when someone comments about your statements, however let's look at the operative statement that prompted my response.

Edit: I know you were saying that the group was greater than an individual. What I mean is that Bruce Lee did something new, and his martial arts knowledge surpassed that of the rest of the world at that time.

You brought up the subject of Bruce Lee to support your comments. My comments were directed at this statement, obviously. I simply reminded you that even Bruce Lee had a mentor at some point in his life and his talent evolved from there.

 

[Aayria]

I see your bruce lee, and invite Chuck Norris to roundhouse kick this thread into oblivion.

 

[inTempus]

I see your bruce lee, and invite Chuck Norris to roundhouse kick this thread into oblivion.

Chuck Norris got his butt kicked by Bruce Lee.

:lmao:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sTawLSNUQ[/ame]