I think I finally understand why dSLRs sell to moms

[Battou]

I think I finally figured out why it is that dSLRs are actually beingt bough by people who will only use it for birthday party snapshooting. That reason is the shitty auto focus of the modern compact point and shoot.

I was attending a family get together with my GF's family on Christmas, being the gear head I am I carted with me four 35mm SLRs, several lenses and a couple flashes and I also had my GF bring out her 35mm SLR. As it turned out the only people to get any pictures from the event where me and my GF. Everyone else who pulled out their camera...(well everyone else, I should say) was unable to opperate their cameras. This was not one camera or manufacturer, Fujifilm, Olyimpus, Kodak and a couple I did not recognize all failed saying the same thing, "Insufficient light", the things would not focus.

Now before this turns into a BS "gear maters" discussion I want to say that Kate was using her AE-1 with my 155A speed light at 1/125 and I used on several ocations my EF with no flash at 1/30 and 1/60. My 35mm Yashica P&S will AF in those lighting conditions.

Why is it that modern P&S AF can not? Is it that AF is the first casualty in cost cutting, or is it a ploy to get people to buy the more expencive equipment?

 

[ATXshots]

My p&s takes forever to focus. Most often I end up just taking the photo anyways.

 

[benhasajeep]

Well I am guessing we are talking about the lower priced spectrum in P&S cameras. Although I don't have one myself (do have a bridge / prosumer), I have used a couple in the middle price ranges and was quite suprised by them. I nearly bought one as a pocket camera. I bought my parents a Nikon coolpix several years ago for christmas and it was a decent camera for $350. Of course I picked one that had the best features for the price range I was willing to spend.

 

[ATXshots]

My camera wasn't that inexpensive (what do you consider inexpensive?). I have a Pentax Optio, think I paid close to $300. But I knew (know) nothing about cameras when I bought it.

Actually, this brings up a question I had...do cameras go bad? My camera is a few years old, and I'm wondering if the focusing problem has anything to do with the age of the camera. Or maybe I just didn't notice before because I wasn't paying attention.

 

[Battou]

Well I am guessing we are talking about the lower priced spectrum in P&S cameras. Although I don't have one myself (do have a bridge / prosumer), I have used a couple in the middle price ranges and was quite suprised by them. I nearly bought one as a pocket camera. I bought my parents a Nikon coolpix several years ago for christmas and it was a decent camera for $350. Of course I picked one that had the best features for the price range I was willing to spend.

A couple of the ones I did not bother to look at enough to recognize where in fact pocket shooters, and those did not suprize me but the ones I mentioned where mid range point and shoots, not high end superzooms but not the cheapoes either. Never the less all of them lacked manual focus options. Being restricted to manual focus in true low light...well that is basics, but I can't for the life of me understand why my twenty year old P&S AF would out preform one that is less than a year old as far as required light goes.

My camera wasn't that inexpensive (what do you consider inexpensive?). I have a Pentax Optio, think I paid close to $300. But I knew (know) nothing about cameras when I bought it.

Actually, this brings up a question I had...do cameras go bad? My camera is a few years old, and I'm wondering if the focusing problem has anything to do with the age of the camera. Or maybe I just didn't notice before because I wasn't paying attention.

AF moters can go, yes, anything electronic can go south and give out just as anything mechanical can get worn out. As for a mere couple of years, I think that would be unlikely unless you put it through heavy ( and I mean heavy) use. My Kodak C-series is nearly three years old and I have abused it badly and it still AF's as fast as it did the day I bought it.

 

[mrodgers]

Even with these P&S cameras, there is still a technique to taking the picture. I have yet to see anyone ever take a snap with a P&S camera who focuses with half-shutter button push like you are suppose to. Everyone I see snaps down on the shutter fully. This not only makes it more difficult for the camera to be focusing, but also introduces camera shake to the image because most usage of these cameras are indoors in poor light for birthday parties and the like.

That's what I think the main problem is. My wife can't take a good looking snap with my camera for the life of her even though I have repeated over and over and over again that she has to press the shutter halfway to let it focus, then press it fully. She snaps her finger down every time no matter what I say. I think this is what the majority of everyone does.

 

[ATXshots]

Even with these P&S cameras, there is still a technique to taking the picture. I have yet to see anyone ever take a snap with a P&S camera who focuses with half-shutter button push like you are suppose to. Everyone I see snaps down on the shutter fully. This not only makes it more difficult for the camera to be focusing, but also introduces camera shake to the image because most usage of these cameras are indoors in poor light for birthday parties and the like.

That's what I think the main problem is. My wife can't take a good looking snap with my camera for the life of her even though I have repeated over and over and over again that she has to press the shutter halfway to let it focus, then press it fully. She snaps her finger down every time no matter what I say. I think this is what the majority of everyone does.

I do thats what I was talking about...it takes forever to 'focus' when I push the shutter half way. I have to keep zooming in and out to get it to focus.

 

[Joves]

I agree with mrodgers. It never ceases to amaze me when I see people just slam the shutter button down. I see this at the Grand Canyon alot.

 

[ksmattfish]

Beyond better AF people, particularly people photographing children, like cameras that shoot when the shutter button is pressed. They also like ISO 400+ that doesn't look like crap. These are the reasons most of the moms I know with DSLRs have them. Most would be content with a point-n-shoot if the camera took the pic when they wanted it too, and if ISO 400+ looked halfway decent.

I've never had a problem getting a digital point-n-shoot to focus. Heck, I wish I could get some out of focus backgrounds, but the format and focal lengths are so small that lots of DOF is a given even at f/2.8. I think the folks above are right. People don't bother to read the manual, and then they don't know how to operate the camera, so they slam down on the shutter button in frustration, and even with fancy IS they get camera shake.

Oh, and beyond that they buy DSLRs for the same reasons everyone else does: big, expensive cameras are cooler.

 

[mrodgers]

Another similar question to be asked is, why do people buy sports cars, yet buy them with an automatic transmission. On top of that, they drive them around at sub-limit speeds. Why do people buy big 4x4 trucks and SUVs, yet never leave the pavement or drive themselves and only themselves back and forth to work every day.

It really does not matter why someone would buy a dSLR instead of a P&S. The fact is, no matter how you use a particular camera, a dSLR camera is going to have a better quality outcome than a P&S. If a hobbyist or professional photographer uses a P&S and a dSLR camera for the same shot, the dSLR shot will be better. If a soccer mom uses a P&S and a dSLR camera for snaps of her kids, the dSLR will come out better. Why does it matter that moms are buying dSLRs? No matter what mode you put the cameras in, if using the same mode (auto, manual, Tv, Av, or whatever), the dSLR camera will produce a better image.

This is a different topic than the "camera doesn't matter" topic. There you are comparing a photographer with a P&S to a snapshooter with a dSLR. Here, you are comparing the same person taking the same shots with the cameras in the same mode. The dSLR will come out on top every time. It doesn't matter what the subject is or how the equipment is being used, the comparison is with the quality of the final product because the product will be shot in the same manner.

 

[JerryPH]

This is a different topic than the "camera doesn't matter" topic. There you are comparing a photographer with a P&S to a snapshooter with a dSLR. Here, you are comparing the same person taking the same shots with the cameras in the same mode. The dSLR will come out on top every time. It doesn't matter what the subject is or how the equipment is being used, the comparison is with the quality of the final product because the product will be shot in the same manner.

We're on the same page and I believe that the other thread is basically the same, in the end.

It irks me to see people think that the same person can get equal results on a P&S and a high end dSLR. I feel sorry for the poor snapshooter who follows the legions of misguided KR fans and are not much more than lemmings in their desire to justify something to themselves that is just simply not true.

We all know that an experienced photographer can grab a P&S and get better results than someone who's just picked up a Nikon D3 in auto mode but is clueless becuase they can compose and know about light and what not. But that same cluless person is going to make the same crappy pictures on ANY camera, not just becuase it is a P&S, high end dSLR or even an Etch-a-Sketch!

At the start, we were *all* clueless, but we all learned! Where does that leave the learned knowledgeable photographer with the P&S suddenly? Up crap creek without a paddle, that's where!

This scenario exists much less today. Today, the learning curve is not decades, like it was in the days of film, where you had to wait and process before seeing your results and could learn from them, where you were limited not to the thousands of pics you can take in a day vs the hundreds you could take in a day and had to wait several more days for before being able to see the fruits of your studies. Today you have millions of books and the internet that holds VAST information and you get to see your results IMMEDIATELY... and that learning curve is reduced from decades to months, if you are *very* serious about it.

An earnest student of photography today can lower that time frame drastically. I look at myself and see someone that has been around cameras all their life, but only really been an avid student of photography for under 2 years, and I place my knowledge at above the same level as my father had after 10 perhaps even 20 years of shooting. Back then, it was all about experience, but today, its not the same anymore... that said, since it is SO EASY to gain and use this knowledge, I do not think that the topic of this thread is as valid a thing to say today anymore, becuase though it may be true at first... in 3 months or less, enough can be easily learned that the tables are turned and no amount of expertise will help that poor person with the P&S against the "3-month newbie" with a dSLR.

Here is the joke in the whole discussion... we are not even talking about any great meaningful levels of knowledge or competence in photography, nor any great levels of skill. Just because a newbie with a dSLR can now officially outshoot the capabilities of a P&S, this doesn't mean very much over all in the grand scheme of things... because now, at this level, this is where it all *really* just starts.

Now one has the tools to at least learn the more intricate aspects of photography and can sincerely start to grow as a photographer, again as long as that desire is in earnest. This is the time to enjoy and learn photography and really start pushing personal limits, because this is where the fun really is!

 

[mrodgers]

We all know that an experienced photographer can grab a P&S and get better results than someone who's just picked up a Nikon D3 in auto mode but is clueless becuase they can compose and know about light and what not. But that same cluless person is going to make the same crappy pictures on ANY camera, not just becuase it is a P&S, high end dSLR or even an Etch-a-Sketch!

That is where the difference is. In the photography hobby sense you can say the pictures are going to be the same crappy pictures. But in the my-kid's-birthday-party snapshot memory sense, they are going to get better pictures even using auto mode simply because any dSLR, beginner or high end, is going to have a better result. The flash is going to be more powerful, the fact that ISO 200 or above is garbage on a P&S where a dSLR will still have acceptable noise at much higher ISO, the focus is going to be much faster, the low light of birthday parties much better, and the overall image sharpness much better. For a snapshooter and capture of memories, a dSLR is going to produce a better result of image quality regardless of artistic quality.

 

[JerryPH]

I could not have said it better myself.

 

[Battou]

Even with these P&S cameras, there is still a technique to taking the picture. I have yet to see anyone ever take a snap with a P&S camera who focuses with half-shutter button push like you are suppose to. Everyone I see snaps down on the shutter fully. This not only makes it more difficult for the camera to be focusing, but also introduces camera shake to the image because most usage of these cameras are indoors in poor light for birthday parties and the like.

That's what I think the main problem is. My wife can't take a good looking snap with my camera for the life of her even though I have repeated over and over and over again that she has to press the shutter halfway to let it focus, then press it fully. She snaps her finger down every time no matter what I say. I think this is what the majority of everyone does.

This brings up something different. Wile I am fully aware that there is tequnique to focusing a P&S and can focus mine, I have infact had trouble with my digital P&S focusing in low light conditions and it is even more forgiving than most. Yet when it is insufficient it quits searching and leaves one to shoot the shot anyways. Now my Yashica 35mm P-Shooter will not release the shutter untill the camera has focused, I found this out when I breeched the minimum focusing distance with it under more than adiquate light. Why is it even possible to to just mash the button down and get a picture?

Beyond better AF people, particularly people photographing children, like cameras that shoot when the shutter button is pressed.

I'll give ya the ISO issue but, unless shutter lag has gotten worse over the past three years, I don't understand what people are complaining about.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/battousaiofnphiles/Photos/Kids/100_1181.jpg
File Size: 139 kb - 800 x 600
Camera Make: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
Camera Model: KODAK EASYSHARE C743 ZOOM DIGI...
Date/Time: 2006:07:28 13:46:37
Resolution: 800 x 600
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 11.6mm (35mm equivalent: 70mm...
Exposure Time: 0.0017 s (1/589)
Aperture: f/3.8
ISO Equiv.: 80
Whitebalance: Auto
Metering Mode: center weight
Exposure: program (auto)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/battousaiofnphiles/Photos/Kids/100_1190.jpg
File Size: 151 kb - 800 x 600
Camera Make: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
Camera Model: KODAK EASYSHARE C743 ZOOM DIGI...
Date/Time: 2006:07:28 13:48:54
Resolution: 800 x 600
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 11.6mm (35mm equivalent: 70mm...
Exposure Time: 0.0032 s (1/309)
Aperture: f/3.8
ISO Equiv.: 80
Whitebalance: Auto
Metering Mode: center weight
Exposure: program (auto)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/battousaiofnphiles/Photos/Kids/100_1196_2.jpg
File Size: 126 kb - 800 x 600
Camera Make: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
Camera Model: KODAK EASYSHARE C743 ZOOM DIGI...
Date/Time: 2006:07:28 13:59:58
Resolution: 800 x 600
Flash Used: Yes
Focal Length: 18.0mm (35mm equivalent: 108m...
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
Aperture: f/4.8
ISO Equiv.: 140
Whitebalance: Auto
Metering Mode: center weight
Exposure: program (auto)

Those may have been under adiquate lighting conditions, but the point I'm getting at is my El Cheapocabrah Easy Share shoots when I tell it to shoot. Good or bad it shoots. Hell, sometimes my itchy trigger finger goes off a little too soon

Oh, and beyond that they buy DSLRs for the same reasons everyone else does: big, expensive cameras are cooler.

You got me there....four SLR's, (not including my GF's) one of which with a flash grip was a little uncalled for

...Why does it matter that moms are buying dSLRs?

It has always been a pet peeve of mine, Marketers who don't always know what their doing or have little to no experiance in photography filling the heads of todays parents that this multi-million dollar setup is what they absolutely have to have to save Jr.'s birthday and are selling top of the line cameras to people that can't necessarily afford them.


And now, I find that that just might be the case.....P-Shooters needing more and more light than ever to AF, and of couse that is if they even bother.

That christmas get together I was at had a hand full of irritated people because when they would point their camera at their kid it told them "insufficient light", Some of them never even got a shot off because their camera would not even try. Additionally, My P&S...the three year old Easy Share I am constantly complaining about AF failure on was able to AF in this situation...I'm calling bullshit somewhere along the lines.

If a hobbyist or professional photographer uses a P&S and a dSLR camera for the same shot, the dSLR shot will be better. If a soccer mom uses a P&S and a dSLR camera for snaps of her kids, the dSLR will come out better. ... No matter what mode you put the cameras in, if using the same mode (auto, manual, Tv, Av, or whatever), the dSLR camera will produce a better image.

This is incorrect, and I say this from experience. Nine times out of ten my SLR has been out done by a Point and Shoot under party/get together conditions. You don't want to see the shit (and I mean shit) that has come out of my SLR from birthday parties, it ain't pretty, francly I am ashamed of them.

 

[custom100]

I am new to the DSLR world but not the SLR world, and I have done some messing around with a point and shoot. Though the point and shoot is a mid to high end one. What I found was for the first little while the Powershot sucked, but it was due to the fact that I did not take the time to read the instructions. Now this was my stupidity and the fact that I was thinking " I have been shooting photos with my 35mm film camera I can deal with this little point and shoot digital." Well all my pictures sucked untill I educated my self. I'm not making that mistake with my new DSLR.

As for socer moms bying DSLR's well they have the disposable income, so if they want the latest and greatest then they will get it. If they are not happy with the pictures that they are getting then why not step up to the next level. Now what is sad is that the people buying the cameras for this reason will not use them to any where near there limits.