"If You Don't Like It, Don't Look!"

[Compaq]

Even though most don't admit it, we're driven by evolution to think well of our own successes, and think less of other's. We're selfish beings. At the end of the day, we're animals, though animals that have decided to live in societies. We've learned through our evolution that being kind and polite helps ourselves. In every action, you can find something that benefits the one doing it. Deny it as much as you like, but I believe every action is driven by selfishness, in a conscious or unconscious manner.

/my beliefs

 

[manaheim]

Perception is key here, and I am sure you've heard that perception is reality.

If a group perceives something to be perverse or lewd, who is to tell them that their views are not valid?



On a side note, the federal laws are for federal property. Each state mandates it's own legislation, and I would find it very troubling to hear of any law that told a private property owner that they could not control what happens on their property.
For example, if a sign in a cafe says "No Shirt, No shoes, No exposed boobs", then anyone who violates it should be delt with.

Last time I'll mention this topic but....You should check out the laws in your state. If a cafe owner had that sign in their window they would probably be sued. A cafe/business that is privately owned but operates for the public cannot tell a women she can't breastfeed on their property.

Cal. Civil Code § 43.3 (1997) allows a mother to breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, except the private home or residence of another, where the mother and the child are otherwise authorized to be present. (AB 157)

Megan, what you seem to be missing is that it's not about laws, it's about some measure of consideration for others who might not be totally comfortable with what you're doing.

It's perfectly legal for me to walk up to someone, stand about 3" from their face and waggle my tongue at them, and it doesn't harm them in any way, but does that mean I should do it? It's perfectly legal for me to wear a speedo and sneakers at a PTF meeting, and it doesn't harm anyone, but should I do it? It's perfectly legal for me to sing the Star Spangled Banner in the middle of a religious oratory, and it doesn't harm anyone, but should I do it?

The simple fact is that no one would really deny anyone their right to do any of these things, but in all cases, I think the bulk of people in attendance to the event would feel that the behaviour was a little... shall we say... overmuch.

Legally defended rights must be overbroad by necessity for them to work because there's simply no way to determine or communicate "reasonability" in a law, but the problem is that then people become unreasonable. Women need to be able to breast feed their children in public. Absolutely. Women should not have to be stuffed into a bathroom stall or other such place to do it. No argument. Do they need to do it in a busy checkout line at a Walmart? Mmm... I think probably this is where the whole "reasonability" thing becomes a bit of a question. For me, that seems a bit... overmuch. I think most folks would concur.

If you ask me, your argument is just more of the fist-pounding drama that has gotten us into a very bad way in this country. It's not reasonable. It's defensible, unfortunately... but it's not reasonable.

 

[manaheim]

I believe relevant laws are on the periphery of this discussion. Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should do it at all places. This discussion is, the way I've understood it, more about general consideration toward our fellow beings.

Street photography may be allowed, but, imo, there's a line between taking a picture and disturbing people's peace. The same goes for breastfeeding. It's great mothers are allowed by law to do this publicly, but one should use discretion. Cover up things, don't do it at restaurants with people eating at the next table, etc. Suckling sounds may not exactly trigger your apatite. Many places have special "nursing rooms", with comfortable chairs and stuff. I've never been in there, but I've heard Some mothers might feel offended by that, but it's true. Just because it's natural and necessary, doesn't mean it's a wonderful sight to all others.

Just because you're allowed to do stuff, doesn't mean you should practice your rights without discretion.

I should have read all the way through before I responded. Compaq nailed it.

 

[KenC]

To follow along the selfishness idea, I think a big problem with any society is that many people seem to have a tendency to want laws that prohibit behavior they don't approve of or wouldn't engage in themselves, whether they are likely to see it or not. If we get past that, then we can have a reasonable discussion about appropriate time and place, but otherwise the discussion polarizes into those who want to ban something and those who want no restrictions at all.

Re the breastfeeding issue, there are many instances of private incidents, like arguments between couples, screaming babies, people spilling things on themselves, etc. In these cases, most people react by just looking away to avoid embarrassing those involved. Why don't people have that reaction to breastfeeding?

 

[manaheim]

To follow along the selfishness idea, I think a big problem with any society is that many people seem to have a tendency to want laws that prohibit behavior they don't approve of or wouldn't engage in themselves, whether they are likely to see it or not. If we get past that, then we can have a reasonable discussion about appropriate time and place, but otherwise the discussion polarizes into those who want to ban something and those who want no restrictions at all.

Re the breastfeeding issue, there are many instances of private incidents, like arguments between couples, screaming babies, people spilling things on themselves, etc. In these cases, most people react by just looking away to avoid embarrassing those involved. Why don't people have that reaction to breastfeeding?

I think you're jumping to the same unreasonable conclusion that Megan is.

No one here said "doing XXX" should be BANNED. No one. Not a single soul.

The minute you even IMPLY this, THEN the discussion becomes polarized.

 

[Designer]

Hey, Bitter. I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your point.

I will, however, offer to answer your question: "Have we really become that selfish?"

Yes. I see quite a lot of selfishness lately.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Have you guys watched Mad Men? Time change.. we cant control it.

 

[slackercruster]

OP, you make valid arguments. But, in society there must be some flexibility.

Who is going to make the laws? If we get too restrictive then we get a Hitler like society.

In general, if it is legal, then a person can do as they please. Sometimes this is tempered with some sort of decency that the person uses to control their actions. Other times, it is not. Just got to suck it up and move on if we don't like something when what bothers us is legal for others to do.

The bottom line is humans are selfish. This is the fly in the ointment with communism. If one is 'selfless' such as ants or bees communism works great. It is only when human selfishness is injected that communism fails miserably.

Read 'Animal Farm' by Orwell...sums it up.

 

[Trever1t]

Some people take things (and themselves) way to seriously and attempt to force their point of view (beliefs) on others, or shame others for having a differing point of view. It's one thing to discuss, another to point fingers and call someone wrong for an emotion.

 

[Netskimmer]

I have to agree that there are laws and there is common courtesy and mutual respect. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right and just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. If we start looking to the federal government for our moral compass things are going to go horribly, horribly wrong.

 

[jwbryson1]

I'm coming in at the end of this discussion, but I went back to look at the original image from the earlier post that spurred this discussion. My wife breast fed our 1 year old daughter in public when she had to but she never "flopped it out" and began feeding the baby. She did it very discretely under a cover hung around her neck so you could not see anything. I can't imagine having an issue with this--to think otherwise, to me at least, would be very unusual and selfish in a sense. Certain things are not appropriate for public viewing, but I don't find this to be one of them, provided it's done discretely. On the other hand, I can't imagine seeing a breastfeeding mom feeding a baby and NOT being discrete about it. I don't think there is anything "dirty" about it, but I do think is mandates some sort of self-consciousness and discretion.

Just my $0.02. YMMV.

 

[o hey tyler]

OMG I LOOKED! MY EYES!!!!!!!!

 

[GeorgieGirl]

Megan, what you seem to be missing is that it's not about laws, it's about some measure of consideration for others who might not be totally comfortable with what you're doing.

The simple fact is that no one would really deny anyone their right to do any of these things, but in all cases, I think the bulk of people in attendance to the event would feel that the behaviour was a little... shall we say... overmuch.

Legally defended rights must be overbroad by necessity for them to work because there's simply no way to determine or communicate "reasonability" in a law, but the problem is that then people become unreasonable. Women need to be able to breast feed their children in public. Absolutely. Women should not have to be stuffed into a bathroom stall or other such place to do it. No argument. Do they need to do it in a busy checkout line at a Walmart? Mmm... I think probably this is where the whole "reasonability" thing becomes a bit of a question. For me, that seems a bit... overmuch. I think most folks would concur.

If you ask me, your argument is just more of the fist-pounding drama that has gotten us into a very bad way in this country. It's not reasonable. It's defensible, unfortunately... but it's not reasonable.

I took a few of your lines out to keep this concise...

I personally don't think that Megan is pounding her fists or has missed the idea of consideration. I believe that she continues to point to the laws because they allow for a particular action to take place and that the action itself is not conisderd to be lewd or immoral.

The reaction that people have to breastfeeding when and where they witness it is personal and each one is entitled to their opinion, but that's just a talking point because at the very heart of the matter, the various laws allow for breastfeeding in public without retaliation or a subset of rules from any single one of us so that WE feel more comforatable about it or begin to start to like it better.

At the end of the day, IMHO, all that is being said here are shared exchanges of personal reactions to this topic. I don't think there is, or that there can be a right or a wrong to a personal reaction on this photo, but I do think insisting that there is only one way to react to what was seen in the photo, or to look down on the person in the photo as a result, is kind of severe.

 

[MTVision]

Megan, what you seem to be missing is that it's not about laws, it's about some measure of consideration for others who might not be totally comfortable with what you're doing.

It's perfectly legal for me to walk up to someone, stand about 3" from their face and waggle my tongue at them, and it doesn't harm them in any way, but does that mean I should do it? It's perfectly legal for me to wear a speedo and sneakers at a PTF meeting, and it doesn't harm anyone, but should I do it? It's perfectly legal for me to sing the Star Spangled Banner in the middle of a religious oratory, and it doesn't harm anyone, but should I do it?

The simple fact is that no one would really deny anyone their right to do any of these things, but in all cases, I think the bulk of people in attendance to the event would feel that the behaviour was a little... shall we say... overmuch.

Legally defended rights must be overbroad by necessity for them to work because there's simply no way to determine or communicate "reasonability" in a law, but the problem is that then people become unreasonable. Women need to be able to breast feed their children in public. Absolutely. Women should not have to be stuffed into a bathroom stall or other such place to do it. No argument. Do they need to do it in a busy checkout line at a Walmart? Mmm... I think probably this is where the whole "reasonability" thing becomes a bit of a question. For me, that seems a bit... overmuch. I think most folks would concur.

If you ask me, your argument is just more of the fist-pounding drama that has gotten us into a very bad way in this country. It's not reasonable. It's defensible, unfortunately... but it's not reasonable.

Seriously? Where did I ever say women don't have to be considerate of others? I never once said women should be able to walk around topless with a baby hanging off one side. Never.
I didn't say I agreed with that picture in the least - she wasn't very discrete which from what I've seen most women are. I've never actually (other then that picture) seen a women breastfeeding publicly like that.

I did say in the beginning of my other post that women should be considerate of others but they shouldn't have to hide in a bathroom stall either.

The only reason I even posted the California law is because someone said they would be upset (don't know exact word used) I they ever heard of law dictating what a private property owner could do on his property. Hopefully as most adults know, there are many laws that tell private property owners what thy can and can not do on their property. The breastfeeding law was relevant.

How is my argument that women should be allowed to breastfeed in public just more fist-pounding drama? I never said anyone had to like it. Do they have to deal with it in most cases - yes. It's no different then anyone other right or anything for that matter. Anti-abortionists have to deal with knowing doctors perform abortions everyday. People have a right to own/bear arms. In some states there are hardly any gun laws so the person in the checkout line in front of you might have a concealed weapon. Maybe you don't like it - do you have to deal with it - yes.

 

[manaheim]

I never said you said that women don't have to be considerate any more than anyone on this thread OR the other one said they should have to go into a bathroom stall.

THAT is what I mean by you embarking on desk-pounding drama. You're adding drama where there isn't any.

People do this in discussions a lot... they somehow leap to some conclusion about what the other person is stating (or implying) when the didn't say any such thing. Then they respond emotionally to that assumed statement and throw it back at the person.

It's the equivelent of...

Person 1: "Look at this picture. It's funny."
Person 2: "They have a legal right to do that. They shouldn't have to be forced into hiding."
Person 1: "Errr... what?"

I do completely get the "Hey, while I get that it's a bit gauche, women get persecuted about this a lot. It's a pretty sensitive subject, it might not be the kindest thing to make fun of them", that hardly seems like the approach you've taken here.

Whatever. It was silly for me to get in the middle of this. Obviously you feel very passionate about it and I can understand that. I just figured maybe the whole thing was spiralling sort of out of control due to the emotional response.