Interesting Reading...

[mrsid99]

Overpopulation is a major cause of most ills but a secondary factor, particularly in the USA, is abysmal education.
When a majority of the students are leaving high school functionally illiterate and yet they feel qualified to pontificate on the worlds direction and which way it should be guided then there is a real issue.
This really is a case of the inmates running the asylum when people who have zero grasp of technology are trying to direct those who do.
Throwing money (money from my taxes probably!) at feel-good projects by the unknowing that have minimal chances of success is stupidity of the highest order.
The hydrogen fiasco springs immediately to mind, not only does it take energy to produce hydrogen with consequent efficiency losses but that gas has a very small molecule which leaks from the smallest pinhole but it has the highest explosive range of just about any gas which coupled with an extremely high flame speed, a low calorific value and a very high vapor pressure makes it a nightmare to store.
Rear-ending a hydrogen powered vehicle would make the Pinto problems a walk in the park.
I'm also afraid that I disagree with Mark in that a loss of luxury does not equal a loss of lifestyle and community, any step back in quality of living is a major retreat.
Remember that without modern technology the present size of the human population would be impossible.

 

[vonnagy]

I'm also afraid that I disagree with Mark in that a loss of luxury does not equal a loss of lifestyle and community, any step back in quality of living is a major retreat.

sorry i should've qualified that statement with, 'From my experience, A loss of luxury does not equal a loss of lifestyle and community.'

I gave up TV 4 years ago to get off my arse and do stuff. Just got sick of being a couch potato. My Dad, being shocked when he visited me here in NZ, last year went out and bought me a TV. I never turned it on, only some mates came by and used it to watch footie once.

I don't have a functionng microwave, dishwasher or many other convienences. I don't feel like I suffer at all. Without having a microwave, i learned how to cook (horribly).

I did cave in and buy a washing machine, but one of my great joys was to go over to the Glen Innes laundry mat and do my laundry. I met my last girlfriend there plus a slew of other interesting people.

I can say that I am not alone here. I know my parents, especially my dad, can not even think to live without his 'luxury items'. But he seems to isolate himself with them at times.

In saying that, I am definately not a luddite. Heck I am a computer programmer - far from it! So I do have a computer that makes my life a bit more enjoyable. But, heck I look out the window.. the country is beautiful there is so much to enjoy than the luxuries you have inside your house. There are new people to meet, new places to see.

I will say I have one other luxury that will be a little hard to give up, thats my air hockey table. But its no fun playing that by myself, so I get all my mates involved with that, its more of a community thing. Plus since I don't have a dryer machine, it serves as my 'hobo' clothes dryer

So from my own experience, a step back in luxury did not equal a loss in quality of living at all, though I can see other people will not be able to see this the same way! :mrgreen:

 

[Osmer_Toby]

When a majority of the students are leaving high school functionally illiterate and yet they feel qualified to pontificate on the worlds direction and which way it should be guided then there is a real issue.
This really is a case of the inmates running the asylum

hmmm. couple things: first, what famous person recently told a crowd of college grads that they too could get C's and become president of the U.S.? i suppose this, though, does confirm the second part of the above quote.

as for students leaving high school illiterate, its because kids these days get passed on to the next grade regardless of what they have or have not accomplished. what the hell do expect from these kids(and by "these kids" i'm referring only to the ones who graduate unable to perform basic literacy and numeracy tasks to which you refer in above quote, and of them i'm referring to the 85% that can't blame their situation on a true learning disability)? they're losers, they're lazy as hell and there's not a damn thing us teachers can do about it. i say this problem needs a fix which begins in the home. but it sure doesn't stop there...

 

[mrsid99]

sorry i should've qualified that statement with, 'From my experience, A loss of luxury does not equal a loss of lifestyle and community.'

Now I agree with that statement and in the near future I intend to retire to the boonies and live a slightly lower tech life.
However, it's only a technological society that continually progresses which allows us these options, if technology fails to progress then it's all downhill for human society as a whole from there, hence my statement that a step back would be a major retreat.

 

[mrsid99]

as for students leaving high school illiterate, its because kids these days get passed on to the next grade regardless of what they have or have not accomplished. what the hell do expect from these kids(and by "these kids" i'm referring only to the ones who graduate unable to perform basic literacy and numeracy tasks to which you refer in above quote, and of them i'm referring to the 85% that can't blame their situation on a true learning disability)? they're losers, they're lazy as hell and there's not a damn thing us teachers can do about it. i say this problem needs a fix which begins in the home. but it sure doesn't stop there...

As you say, it begins in the home but the teaching profession in the USA also has a lot to answer for.
Who's forcing teachers to pass kids to the next grade when they should be held back?
Why is the curriculum heavily biased to the so-called "humanities"
subjects while basic numeracy and literacy is minimal and true science subjects are practically non-existent?
Could it be that those "soft" subjects are impossible to measure so no one can then be held responsible?
Teaching logical thinking is an absolute no no because facts couldn't then be twisted into "opinions".
Why is a certain teachers union fighting tooth and nail to prevent teacher certification being required?
The latest excuse is "class size", being a baby boomer the typical class size I was in averaged 42 and out of a school of 500 kids only less than a dozen received special education and those kids had genuine problems.
The rest, at age 11, could read and write letters with no problem and you had no chance at cheating them in a game of "301" darts!
Are present day children different? I doubt it!
The amount of money being plowed into education in the USA is unreal and most of it is being wasted, the teachers who do the real teaching are grossly underpaid and the bureaucrats way overpaid and far too plentiful plus there's lots of other boondoggles in the system that waste money.
Major overhaul needed to give the next generation a decent education and throwing money at it has been proven over and over to be useless.

The "problem begins in the home" part in my opinion goes back to the too many people issue.
Sure the economic pie keeps getting bigger (so far!) but there's a lot more people looking for a piece of it.
In the not too distant past a guy could get a job in factory doing a semi-skilled job such as driving a forklift and make enough money to raise a family and if he was smart even buy his own house and all without the wife having to work a regular job.
Nowadays it takes both marriage partners working full time at skilled jobs to do that and the nasty part is that then the kids don't get the parental attention they need and deserve.
Teachers then become day-care attendants but you may have noticed this?

 

[manda]

:shock:

I cant comment on the American school systems, but here in Australia our MAIN Key Learning Areas are Literacy and Numeracy. Yes, we are expected to fit everything else in as well, but I know in my classroom and at my school, none of them can even be attempted without the 2 fundamentals of literacy and numeracy.

I have seen a HUGE change in Education since I was at school and it comes from expectations, power and the way society views education.
There is no respect, children have and know all their rights, many of their parents dó not support their schooling or the discipline that comes along with it and their overall attitude is one that causes MAJOR problems to children's learning.
Once a child is gone beyond a point of no return(which they do) it is EXTREMELY hard to get them out of the patterns and lifestyle that they are accustomed to. I for one think that anyone can be taught to read and write with proper guidance, no matter what age, but the support has to be there.
If there is no support or alliance from home, then there is no hope whatsoever.
People don't like to hear that their child is struggling, they want to blame the teacher, blame society, blame whoever...
The hardest thing for them is admitting there is a problem and agreeing to get off their arses to do something about it.

As far as the class sizing goes...thats well and good for a time where discipline was allowed to be administered through violence, where children were too scared out of their minds to move a muscle, where children didn't have the ridiculous amounts of emotional and social problems as they do now, where there weren't children swinging from the fans and jumping on the tables because they hadn't taken their medication. We live in a different society and class size is a major factor in learning.
Anyone that says this is a cop out and compares it to a time which was TOTALLY different to now, I offer you a day in a classroom where you have 30 separate sad stories going on.
A class where you have language disorders causing children to become agitated and not wanting to learn, where other children are not in the mood to learn how to write an exposition because their father beat up their mother that morning to get drug money out of her, where one child is constantly hitting and kicking others because he is constantly hit and kicked at for breathing and doesn't know any better, where one child is calling out every minute at the top of their voice because they have autism(these types of children were not included in schools back then, they were banished remember. now we include them as they have a right to an education like every other child.), not to mention the 18 children who can not understand a word you are saying because they not long hopped off a refugee boat.


Sorry to rant, but hearing that education is to blame for the world's wrongs, makes my blood boil because teachers work ****ing hard and most do their best to provide quality learning for their students.

 

[Osmer_Toby]

Who's forcing teachers to pass kids to the next grade when they should be held back?

the present educational philosophy, which is dictated by administrators and boards of education (made up of non-educators) states that children should be “socially promoted” regardless of their academic standing. the justification for this practice is that the self-esteem of the child would be irreparably damaged if he or she is forced to endure the stigma of retention. teachers hate this philosophy- not one of my colleagues has ever spoken up in favor of the practice, and have bitterly fought with administration, at least in the beginning. after a few absolutely fruitless battles in which we got our asses handed to us for going against the grain, we learned to shut up. the problem is these decisions are not made by us, and even when we supposedly have a say, we in truth do not. the final decision comes down to board policy, and that is made by the people of the town, not people who know what they’re talking about. when people in the general population blindly blame educators for this sorry state of affairs, they merely reinforce the problem.

Why is the curriculum heavily biased to the so-called "humanities"
subjects while basic numeracy and literacy is minimal and true science subjects are practically non-existent?

again, curriculum is set by local boards of education. who is on these boards, making these decisions? non-teachers. now, it would be unfair to say that these boards do not get some input from so-called education experts (curriculum specialists, principals, superintendants, etc.) notice anything missing in that parenthetical expression? teachers. we do give our opinions to the supers or specialists, but in the end the decisions are shaped by people who are far removed from the classroom. some of these administrators have never seen day one in a classroom.

Could it be that those "soft" subjects are impossible to measure so no one can then be held responsible?

1) according to our scholar/president, they can be measured. ever heard of “no child left behind?” problem is, we teachers agree with you- standardized testing of this kind is ludicrous. do you really believe the SAT is always, or even usually, indicative of how a student will do in college? it has been proven (wish I had stats at my fingertips, will get them if you want) beyond doubt that the only thing the SAT proves is from what socio-economic background a student is coming. standardized testing does not work.

2) whom would you hold responsible if the kid does not score high enough on this standardized test? the teacher? way too simple, man. we have absolutely no control over what happens outside of our classroom, and the outside world influences success rates of students to such a degree that merely blaming a teacher for a student’s failure is also dangerously narrow-minded thinking. unfortunately, this type of thinking is in vogue. much easier to point fingers than address the much more complex roots of the problem.

Why is a certain teachers union fighting tooth and nail to prevent teacher certification being required?

not aware of any teacher’s union fighting basic certification requirements. could you be more specific?

The amount of money being plowed into education in the USA is unreal and most of it is being wasted, the teachers who do the real teaching are grossly underpaid and the bureaucrats way overpaid and far too plentiful

amen, brother. you’re preaching to the choir on these points.


as for comparing today’s class size to those of 50 years ago, if you give me the same freedom to teach the way teachers taught back then, you could give me 50 kids in a class. any ass----- kid who gets out of line will get kicked out so I can teach the rest who want to learn? hell yes, sign me up for that class. today, if I followed the policies of the 1950’s classroom teacher, I would at best be fired and at worst jailed or made penniless by the parents’ lawyers. this I have seen time and again- a parent threatens with a lawsuit, and no matter how guilty or how lazy or how obnoxious the kid, no matter how bad his behavioral record YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, no matter how justified the teacher’s actions, the administration will back down and concede the matter because they don’t want the publicity or the cost of a legal battle. doesn’t matter how detrimental this is to the other kids in the classes of the bad kid; those other kids’ parents aren’t threatening lawsuits. in our society today, there are no bad kids. just bad rules. you try teaching 50 kids about molecular bonding when 10 of them are hoods off the street and act that way in the classroom.

I have more to say but will stop there for now.

 

[Sharkbait]

I'd throw in this teacher's input, but Toby and Mander said it pretty damn well.

Allow me to tell you a story though, from earlier this year.

I gave a poetry project. The kids (8th graders--13 and 14 yr olds) had to write 5 poems of their own, type them up, and put them together into a little creative booklet thing. They had a week of classtime to do this project. Of the 165 kids I have, over a dozen of them simply searched the internet and copied poems down. Duh. It's painfully easy to spot the difference between a 13 year old's poem and a professionally written one. And it's just as easy to catch. Bring up google, type in the first line, and voila, I've got a plagiarizer.

So all the plagiarizers got zeroes on their projects and a detention. I'm getting the detention forms back the next day, and one girl brings in a note from her mom. Mom was VERY snippy, and said that her daughter would NOT be serving a detention, that said daughter was quite upset about this, and a zero on the project was more than enough punishment, and also that if I had any further comments, I could direct them to her husband as his law firm.

I brought the administration in on it and sent a very nice, but very firm letter back to the parents explaining how it's set in our handbook that any form of plagiarism is an automatic detention, etc., and also let mommy know that I didn't think her daughter had learned her lesson, as this was the second time this year I'd caught her cheating.

So if I (and my admin) hadn't stuck to my guns, what would this kid have learned?--to cheat, take the easy way out, and then wait for mommy and daddy to remove all blame and responsibility from her.


That's what teachers nowdays have to deal with on a daily basis. :?

 

[terri]

whew!!! This is absolutely fascinating. I guess I'm the rare mom, since the first time my son skipped school (and was caught because he and his little buddies are just dumbasses about it) I just asked him if he was ready to go, then we went back to the school, straight to the principal's office, and I loudly declared (to his utter humiliation) that he had skipped school that day and I was there to find out what the punishment was, and make sure it was enforced. I then led him around to every single class he'd missed, so he had to face his teachers and pick up assignments he'd missed.

That's pretty in-your-face responsible parenting, isn't it?? Well, I thought it was. Trying to make a lasting impression.

To this day, though, he's still a lazyass teenager and he's skipped a few times this year because he missed the bus, I'm off at work, and it was easier for him to lay out. <shrug> Well, he was shown there are eventual consequences to his own actions. I've thrown the book at him more than once. I love him, and he's basically a very good kid, but he's a lazy one, waves off school as this painful torture he's made to endure.
:roll:

He has his own chores, is prodded to do homework, etc - so, although of course it *begins at home* - I must say, from a moderately strict parent's side - it may begin at home, but it ends WITHIN. His own dumb brain is making these choices. He's been told frankly he won't be sitting on his ass at home when he reaches his 20's, freeloading off of me and my husband.

I can't say he's any better or worse than his little band of brothers, either - they all come off like this. There are all sorts of influences, socioeconomic factors involved. No easy answer, anywhere. I couldn't face a room full of these brats for any amount of money, I don't believe. I feel like sending a sympathy card to all his teachers, and hopefully they'd return one to me. Or a medal.

That is all. Carry on.

 

[Osmer_Toby]

I guess I'm the rare mom

yes, you are. very very few parents these days seem to take the more painful, closer look at the situation. they are always looking for someone else to blame for their child's inequities. teachers and schools in general are a favorite target. good for you, but more importantly, good for your kids that you see the way you do. (i knew i liked you so much for a good reason!)

keep heart, tho, terri. it sounds like you have a very good handle on what is happening with your son- you place the responsibility squarely where it belongs- on the kid. unless develops an internal locus of control, he will forever be at the whims of the rest of the world, regardless of who gets blamed for what and how much money is spent on his education and how hard you and your husband work to help him. it's gotta come from within.

the good thing is, very often kids mature emotionally at some point and do develop that internal locus of control. with parents who do not make excuses for him, he has a better shot than most of coming to that point in his life. it is almost never too late to get there- i know people who matured as late as thier 30's and 40's who turned thier life around and made good. (most often the turn-around occurs earlier, so don't get discouraged) from what you have described to me, i think you are an awesome parent. wish we had more like you in our town. :heart:

 

[terri]

Well....thank you. All his teachers and I get along just fine, it seems.

 

[vonnagy]

ah the state of education system.

when I was lecturing at a private university (to be unnamed) 3 years ago, we truly got the refuse of the dregs of society. The university literally had NO admissions standard (ok, you had a write an essay why you wanted to attend). Some of the essays were so bad they were literally framed and matted to the amusement of the office. Sad part, as long as payed you got in. These poor students took out $35,000 gov't loans to go here, and were not qualified to be here. I have no problem with for profit university, but if they lack intergrity here are some of the by products:

• * A master's degree student graduate with out knowing how to save there assigment to a floppy disk.

• * A bachelors student was caught stealing equipment on video on school premises. A mild verbal warning was issued as long as the equipment as returned. The student continued courses as if nothing happened.

• * A student threatened to kill his girlfriend in a classroom. Though I do know police were involved they just switched the classrooms between the two.

• * I failed a student for missing an exam. He went directly to the president who forced me to let him retake the exam.

• * The dismissed a student who sent a nude picture from his school account to his hotmail account. I agree that if he was spamming other folks with the stuff, but to himself?

• * I constantly had to slow down class because most of the student did not have english as their first language

• * I was physically threatened in one class, luckily my 6'3 canuck colleague was able dissaude any further aggression. But the student habitually threatened all the teachers, and intimidated one female lecturer so much that she would not teach without her husband in her classroom. Yet the student graduated with honours?

• * cheating was so rampant it was accepted as the norm among students.

This wasn't at the high school level, this was a fully accrediated University by SACCS, the same board that overseas the ALL the major universities in Southern States. It was a double edged sword. You could report these issues, but then your place of work shuts down. If you didn't give a **** about your colleagues, then you would do so but we had a strong commitment to each others employment. My mates there still complain that nothing has changed. The school president has change about 5 times in the last 3 years.

When I left, I was really hoping that was an anomoly. But I've spoken to couple Aussie Prof's and they said it was no different there. Luckily, I haven't heard the same things here in Kiwiland, but that could happen here as well.

This is what happens when issues aren't addressed early on. It scares me that these kids are going into the workplace. They have no integretity (not all of them, but you get my drift). You can see why moralist christians are so successful in the States because you get tired of seeing that sh*t in the classrooms.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant... i feel much better now Sorry I didn't list any positive solutions for this, but I like Mr. Sid's STOP BREEDING

 

[Osmer_Toby]

STOP BREEDING

heheh. my colleagues and i often talk about installing radioactive chips at waiste level in the doorjambs to our classrooms. something just strong enough to kill off the reproductive cells....

 

[vonnagy]

along the lines of STOP BREEDING, we could be treading dangerous ground, the whole eugenics idea was based on getting poor people, certain races and and the mentally challenged to stop reproducing. It was clearly promoted by the rich in America at the turn of century and gave creedence to Hitlers program.

I know, I know, I am taking this a bit too seriously but just some food for thought.

On a much brighter note, I SOLD MY FIRST PHOTOGRAPHS yesterday! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

 

[Osmer_Toby]

congratulations, my friend! your work so deserves an appreciative public. this is just the first of many, i am quite sure- your talent is too great to be kept secret for long.

rock on, dude!

p.s. gonna share the shots?