Leaked Sony RX1 Fits a DSLR in Your Pocket (rumor)

[usayit]

Unpopular,

The factory often does matter... and not just in this case but in many consumer products. What it boils down to is craftsmanship, proper management, and skilled hands. All human aspects that vary from one facility to another. I don't think Derrel meant Asian vs German but the quality of the original Zeiss lenses that earned their reputation versus the lenses produced by Cosina today.

* VW's went through some serious quality issues when made in Mexico. Many consumers would even search dealers for cars that were actually made in Germany.
* Leica moved manufacturing from Weitzler Germany to Canada back when the company was struggling. Some of the products during that time are considered inferior to the earlier german ones made. On the bright side, many of the Canadian Leica products are given credit to keeping the company alive. It was moved back to Solms, Germany.
* Toyota manufacturing in the US went through a long stint of problems as well. My father's 89 Camry (Japanese built) hit 300,000 miles before it died. He was a die hard Toyota fan for many years until he purchased the Sienna. Non-stop problems with quality and it died at 160,000... again a Japanese designed but American built vehicle. He discovered the same for any Toyota that was intended for the North American market... and generally avoids them.
* Often we see very low quality manufacturing out of China. Foxconn for example is capable (other controversies aside) of producing quality work.

Cosina is the worlds largest manufacturer of optics. Many of their off the shelf optics have found (whether openly admitted or not) their way into other branded products. In the Leica M world, Voigtlander rangefinder lenses have earned a good reputation as an alternative to Leica optics. I personally have (and like) the 28mm f/1.9 ultron in screwmount, 21 Color-skopar, 12mm Heliar, as well as the 35mm f/1.2 Nokton. All good lenses for their price... decent build quality too. Oh yeh... Voigtlander (another long dead German name) was indirectly acquired (and manufactured) by Cosina through their acquisition of the Zeiss. I found Zeiss M lenses FEEL good too (expensive) but I have only handled them in the store with no time spent behind them. I hear differently for lenses of other mounts. I have seen other crappy products out of Cosina as well... which often boggles my mind. It seems their quality is all over the place.

 

[unpopular]

Oh please, Howard. This isn't a "spin". How else can anyone say that Zeiss lenses are inferior simply because they were manufactured in Asia?

Whether Japanese made Zeiss is "really Zeiss" is an old debate.

 

[rexbobcat]

Oh please, Howard. This isn't a "spin". How else can anyone say that Zeiss lenses are inferior simply because they were manufactured in Asia?

Whether Japanese made Zeiss is "really Zeiss" is an old debate.

What if the manufacturing in a country is quantifiably and consistently inferior...

 

[unpopular]

I don't think Derrel meant Asian vs German but the quality of the original Zeiss lenses that earned their reputation versus the lenses produced by Cosina today.

That does make sense, and I did misunderstand the point here. As I've said, this is an OLD debate. But I would still blame Zeiss, not so much Cosina. I doubt that Zeiss does not know know what it's getting. That's assuming ofcourse that the lens cap isn't the extent of the Zeiss/Cosina problem.

I've never felt that the CY "made in Japan" lenses were at all inferior to the German made lenses. I have no idea about these newest series.

Still, at the prices of the CF and CZ series - I'd hope that you're getting more than a "Made in Germany" stamp.

 

[unpopular]

Oh please, Howard. This isn't a "spin". How else can anyone say that Zeiss lenses are inferior simply because they were manufactured in Asia?

Whether Japanese made Zeiss is "really Zeiss" is an old debate.

What if the manufacturing in a country is quantifiably and consistently inferior...

If a country does not have access to modern manufacturing technology and suitable education, then yeah, it's a legitimate complaint. I'd still blame Zeiss for cutting corners, sending their formulas to a third world country.

But reputation and stereotype doesn't cut it for me.

 

[molested_cow]

The factory does matter.
Cars, electric appliances, hard disks, consumer electronics etc. Anything that requires certain amount of precision will depend on how the factory is managed to ensure its quality. The culture of the factory workers matters too. If you issue a minimum standard, the Japanese will pride themselves by exceeding the scale, while the Chinese will be satisfied just passing it(cheats included). No I am not being racist. I'm Chinese.

 

[mjhoward]

Oh please, Howard. This isn't a "spin". How else can anyone say that Zeiss lenses are inferior simply because they were manufactured in Asia?

Whether Japanese made Zeiss is "really Zeiss" is an old debate.

See, that's the thing... Derrel never once mentioned the country or ethnicity, YOU did, Derrel simply stated the name of a company that is known for producing budget lenses. YOU are the one that brought the company's race into the discussion. Derrel's comment had absolutely nothing to do with Asians, but instead the company. Just like anywhere else, there are companies that produce quality products, and there are those that produce inferior products. He never said they were inferior because they were produced by Asians. Perhaps you should stop putting words into peoples mouths.

 

[usayit]

But I would still blame Zeiss, not so much Cosina. I doubt that Zeiss does not know know what it's getting. That's assuming ofcourse that the lens cap isn't the extent of the Zeiss/Cosina problem.

Just to be clear... (not just to unpopular's account). My original comment:

Is it really? or just another branding job? See Panasonic lenses with Leica branding....

Was specifically pointing towards the licensing agreement between Panasonic and Leica... not towards Leica itself. Just like Sony has a licensing agreement with Zeiss.. not towards Zeiss itself. More specifically, the Leica branded Lumix lenses are actually manufactured by Panasonic with perhaps designs, specifications provided by Leica. Hence.... branding job... in which the name itself may be a marketing maneuver rather than an indication of quality itself.

Just to be even more clear.... The Lumix micro 4/3 lenses branded Leica are actually pretty good. I have nothing against them.

 

[unpopular]

Yep, to me that's the weirdest part of this whole thing. If they're trying to ride the relatively obscure Zeiss name, they're going to completely be undermined by the Sony name.

It's like if a Carrol Shelby edition Hyundai came out for $200,000

It's actually this sentiment that inspired my statement.

 

[unpopular]

But I would still blame Zeiss, not so much Cosina. I doubt that Zeiss does not know know what it's getting. That's assuming ofcourse that the lens cap isn't the extent of the Zeiss/Cosina problem.

Just to be clear... (not just to unpopular's account). My original comment:

Is it really? or just another branding job? See Panasonic lenses with Leica branding....

Was specifically pointing towards the licensing agreement between Panasonic and Leica... not towards Leica itself. Just like Sony has a licensing agreement with Zeiss.. not towards Zeiss itself. More specifically, the Leica branded Lumix lenses are actually manufactured by Panasonic with perhaps designs, specifications provided by Leica. Hence.... branding job... in which the name itself may be a marketing maneuver rather than an indication of quality itself.

Just to be even more clear.... The Lumix micro 4/3 lenses branded Leica are actually pretty good. I have nothing against them.

ok. piss.

I was wrong. I misunderstood the conversation and applied my own feelings from unrelated topics to this discussion.

you all can put down the pitch forks and torches and go home now....

 

[fjrabon]

I don't see how you could infer that it was the country that mattered in Derrel's analysis, not the factory. Especially considering how much Derrel often goes on about the quality of Nikon.

The German Zeiss factory has employees still around who have been there for years, manufacturing the highest quality Zeiss lenses. Even the newer employees were often trained by the older employees. The Cosina employees don't have such training, and are 'just making it to spec' There's a big difference.

Sure, in a sense Zeiss made the choice to put its brand name on the line by farming out work to less experienced factories. But to say that questioning which factory the lens was made at as a concern is racist is patently absurd, if not outright inflammatory and classless.


edit: didn't read the last post unpopular made until after I posted this.

 

[cgipson1]

Fortunately not everyone cares about the name on a camera more than they care about the performance of it, and not everyone who cares about the name (or the company) looks down on Sony. Sony has a long history of class-leading innovation, though perhaps it is more obvious at the relatively high end.

Now that more details are available about the RX1, it is obvious that it owes much more to the RX100 than to the NEX line. The RX100 is an outstanding camera with some groundbreaking usability and image quality features for both stills and video. It puts all its rivals, including those from Canon and Nikon, in the shade.

Helen.. I respect your knowledge very much.

I assume you are also aware of the many bad products, bad decisions, extremely proprietary nonsense, customer ripoffs, changing products after they are released to limit customer use (PS3 for instance), failed promises about upgrades, malware they put on thier CD's and DVDs as Copy Protection, Using their "clout" to promote their products in a very monopolistic way, etc, etc, etc?

See. This is EXACTLY my point. You can infer all this racist crap, like how Asian-made Zeiss isn't as good as German made Zeiss without any real reason aside from the stereotype that Germans make good lenses, while Asians (aside from the Big Two) don't.

But instead of blaming Zeiss for going lax on standards and specifications of their lens caps, people like to blame the manufacturer - and always bring up the fact that these "inferior Asian lenses" are made somewhere other than Germany. I can guarantee you that it's not Yashica, Cosina or Kyocera that's cutting the corners - it's Zeiss; and if Zeiss wanted to control the quality of the brand, Yashica, Cosina or Kyocera, would be plenty capable of producing the quality which we normally associate with Zeiss. Whether these manufacturers are located in Europe or Asia is entirely irrelevant.

Personally, I think it's racist to conclude that a nationality or race is inherently less capable than any other by virtue of race or nationality alone. Unfortunately, when we think of racism we think of slurs and slogans, not the beliefs which are commonly held as truth.

It has nothing to do with race! It has to do with quality.. some COMPANIES produce quality.... Some COMPANIES produce lesser quality. Get off the RACE thing... that makes no sense at all! My Nikon is Japanese... My Honda is Japanese... All of my stereo equipment is Japanese.... and I love SUSHI and Tempura! So get off the silly race thing.

As far as Zeiss goes... if SONY pays enough for the licensing and name... then they get it, whether what they produce under is as good as the stuff as Zeiss or not! And no.. Cosina has never produced the kind of quality I associate with Zeiss!

 

[unpopular]

my comments weren't meant to be directed at anyone in particular.

Like I said. This is an old debate. There has for a long time been a baseless belief that Zeiss lenses which are stamped "Made in Japan" are inferior or in-genuine for no other specific reason than this fact.

I mistakenly believed that this is what this discussion was about.

 

[cgipson1]

Oh. And I want to make it absolutely clear I don't think anyone here is "a racist". But I do have a real problem with this mentality that Zeiss isn't a "real Zeiss" unless it's made in Germany.

It isn't a real ZEISS, unless it has the famous ZEISS quality, no matter where it is made! And the SONY branded ones.... do not cut the mustard!

 

[Derrel]

Since I was the one accused of being a racist by unpopular, I'd like to clarify MY OWN post. What I meant is that the "Zeiss lens" slapped on the new SONY camera is, as overread stated, a big "branding" thing. Furthermore, as I stated, "Carl Zeiss" is simply the name of a long-dead man. As I pointed out, "Zeiss" lenses have been made by Yashica, Kyocera, and now, by Cosina. Which proves my point--"Zeiss" is simply a "brand"...it is NOT, I repeat, it is NOT a camera or a lens manufacturer, as are Nikon, and Canon...Zeiss is a brand-name...like the brand "Voigtlander"...which was bought, as a name only, and resurrected by the Cosina company.

No racist overtones. No use of the word "beaners" and "chinks"-- that was all from Mr. unpopular. My point was that the "Zeiss" lens slapped onto the new Sony represents a "branding" move by Sony. Sony cameras have no real collector base, and a tiny user base, so as HelenB apparently misunderstood, a camera branded SONY on the front has crap resale value, since there are no Sony collectors, as there are for expensive Leica and Nikon cameras. When a person pays an exorbitant amount of money for a fancy necklace, the customer is quite often a yuppie, or hipster, or a Leicaphile. Sony realizes this, and has tapped into the "Zeiss" name as a way to appeal to hipsters and dweebs who think it means something...and that is all Zeiss really is...a name...a brand name...Zeiss is not a lens maker...Zeiss is a brand name, that farms out the lens making to whoever. "Carl Zeiss" was resurrected by Yashica, years ago. Later, Kyocera made "Carl Zeiss" lenses. Carl Zeiss is pretty much the same as Vivitar was--a brand name for products whose actual manufacturing was farmed out to OTHER, actual companies.