learning men/Updated OP

[tirediron]

To paraphrase John... There are many ways through the forest, but it's easier following a path.

Pre-zact-ickly!

 

[Overread]

The other element of photoshop that is often rarely covered online is a workflow - methods are heavily covered; but few people take the time to write out a full article with reasoning as to what each step is in a series of orders to take a photo from RAW to finish.

 

[mmaria]

I see some white balance issues, a bit too much green especially in #4.

I'll do some adjustments regarding colors

I agree; the WB does seem a tad off, but that's easily corrected. Two further nits: I'm not fond of the way you've cropped off his back in #2 and in #4, there's one collar point inside and one outside his sweater. Minor, but to me at least, visually annoying! Overall I think you did really well, and the chap in the second set has a great look for young men's fashion work!

well, the second guy is an experienced model, and did a lot of high fashion work.
I don't mind the collar point at all because I feel it's balanced with those buttons on the left, but I do understand you

as for cropping, I'll adjust the crop in #4

 

[mmaria]

I'm used to adding gentle colors but what do I do with a guy?

These aren't bad, but you can learn a lot by looking at other photographers' work. Try to look at several portfolios from photographers who have a really good reputation for portraiture.

I think you will find that for men you can shoot in "low key" and allow shadows, something that you probably wouldn't do when shooting women. Study posing for men, as it will be different from posing women. We're not complicated at all, so have fun with it.

These guys would be described as androgynous. Which for your style fits well. If on the other hand you were dealing with more masculine men, workers, and such then what Designer said would apply to a much greater degree. Harsh lighting and 'strong' poses are the mainstay of masculine subjects.

It's true that these guys fits for my style.

 

[mmaria]

These guys would be described as androgynous. Which for your style fits well. If on the other hand you were dealing with more masculine men, workers, and such then what Designer said would apply to a much greater degree. Harsh lighting and 'strong' poses are the mainstay of masculine subjects.

Yes, they do seem a bit andro. As far as that goes, the head tilt to the high shoulder in shot #4....that is a classic feminine head tilt, and that really suggests femininity, depending on whether the subject is male, or female. Such an extreme head tilt, with the low shoulder very low, and the high shoulder and head very prominently aligned as they are is a traditionally verrrry counter-masculine connotation among those who have studied painting and photographic traditions in body posing. At the studios I worked for in the 1980's and 1990's this feminine head tilt was discouraged, very strongly, for men. However...this is a different time, and if you want to give off an androgynous vibe, this makes sense to pose a male in this way. This is part of the visual language, and it's been done this way for literally centuries...look at classical painting as a guide to shoulder alignment, and head angle in relation to the shoulders.

This topic here on TPF in the past has drawn some very non-beleiveing responses from people who claimed there "is no such thing" as a masculine or a feminine head tilt, or pose. Designer's comments on posing for women is a good example of the hidden bias toward masculine poses and masculine head positioning, versus how women are posed (women today are often posed in BOTH masculine OR feminine poses and feminine head tilts!).

Poses #1 and #2 have a slumped-over, hunched back, which conveys depression and hopelessness very well, and works very well for this young man. #1 has very clever framing and composition. #2 really conveys a sense of sadness, and the eye contact reinforces it. #3 has pretty good background control, with squared up, level shoulders, head in alignment with the face angle (neutral), but the long expanse of cloth below the folded arms looks like a skirt...it really does (maybe it is?)....it would look better cropped at the bottom a bit. #4..well...there's the androgynous effect, big-time.

Nice color palette on these though..moody...subtle.

I agree with everything you said
... and I wrote another post explaining what I think.

 

[mmaria]

I'm not really a fan of these mmaria. I think most of your shots have an unconsious confidence, an insight to the shot and a feel to them that's spot on almost every time. These shots look a bit forced to me. Sure, there's a few things that a bit emo and "twilighty" about these shots and that demographic will like these so it's not that they don't have appeal.

I really don't think it's a masculine vs feminine thing, but more that you got worried about how to pose them and shoot them that it shows in the final image and the shots lack mainly the strong connection that we are used to seeing in your shots. But that kind of shows in your comments too. I think don't worry too much about your subject being masculine or feminine but what your connection to the shot is.

A good example is the older lady's hands you shot, I doubt you were consious of her sex when you took it but you made a connection which was comfortable and natural.

Could you read what I wrote yesterday about posing them? and what I said about the masculine-feminine thing

I hear what you're saying, and I think it's because I wasn't in my comfort zone. But I also think that I succeed in making the connection with both of them (based on all pictures I took and the whole shoot) but I'm not skilled enough for editing these.

Of course, I understand why and what you think, and thank you. (I'll do better in future )

 

[mmaria]

With men, as with women, it works best when we can connect to the person within, or to what we think we imagine the person to be.

so you think failed making that connection this time?

 

[mmaria]

mmaria, I think #3 is the nicest of the set, though I think you could strengthen with a little cropping off the top of the frame.

All of them are "angsty whiny teenagerish" looking, which annoys me endlessly... but not from a photographic standpoint so much as an "old curmudgeon" standpoint.

I do not think they are as good as your usual stuff, but I do think #3 is great. (and sorry I can't be more constructive on these... people photography is not generally my thing)

thank you for your thoughts... I'll adjust the crop you mentioned

 

[mmaria]

I love these. Yes, it's good to know how to make a man look masculine, but in my opinion it isn't a bad thing for a man to have soft or gentle body language as well, and I try not to focus too much on making sure my male models look "manly" or basing too much of my posing off of their gender; loosen up a bit and have fun. That said, I think you did a good job by posing them in ways to create sharp angles that compliment their "manliness", but your soft evocative style is still apparent and is what I love most about these shots.

It's interesting that you're the only person that likes these (besides me, and I've just seen that Leonore liked this... that makes three of us)

I particularly like 1 and 4. Both of those shots tell a story to me and express something very evocative.

ty, that was my goal

4 is my favorite; it's a beautiful headshot, but I would consider cropping it. I especially like the green tones, but I would perhaps warm up his skin just a bit with some subtle orange/red tones and play around with the colors a bit more to get tones that compliment each other better; the green tones in the background would really compliment a warmer skin tone in my opinion, and would make the dark purple spots under his eyes less apparent and more healthy looking. The dark purple tones in the under-eye spots make him look very sleep deprived, and a little dodging and color adjustment should be enough to fix it. I would also use a layer mask over a "Color Balance" adjustment layer in order to selectively remove the big green spot under the model's chin in the last shot, and another to match the skin tone on the right side of his face to the left side of his face.
Here is a quick edit I did:

(If you like the edit and want to dissect it, here is the TIF file. I'm happy to answer any questions if you have any.
Dropbox - _MG_7100.tif

I think it also makes an interesting black and white: http://orig11.deviantart.net/5205/f/2016/120/5/e/_mg_7100bw_by_danostergren-da0ub0h.jpg

I downloaded the file and looked what you've done. Thank you thank you thank you! You finished the image just the way I wanted but wasn't able to achieve because I have no necessary skills.
If I'm not able to replicate what you've done with this image I'll just steal your version and call it mine

I was also thinking that this image will be good in bw, but I choose color because I don't want to lose his blue eyes.

I also thought I should comment on the head tilt in the last image: I love it. It says so much more than a stiff, straight-on look. It adds interest and personality. Don't box yourself into these stupid masculine/feminine rules, and keep doing what you're doing.

exactly... and thank you for the support

The styling on the first guy is a bit boring in my opinion, but the styling on the second guy looks more like something I would see published in a magazine. That model has a high fashion/ agency look to him, and I would definitely work with him more. I'd love to see any more of the shots you got of him.

Both of the guys are in the agency, but I didn't contact them trough the agency. I plan to contact their agency for other models.
First one, Ognjen is just starting in modeling but he was already in Milan Italy and he signed for this Paris fashion week and New York fashion week next year.
Srdjan is about three years in modeling. He has already done a lot in high fashion industry and made a lot of money in a few countries. It's interesting that his posing video is showed as an example to the new models, to learn from it. He's respected model from things I heard about him.
I have more shots of him and I'll practice dodge-burn-selective color-sharpening on them, and we'll see what I'll be able to do

My least favorite shot is the 3rd one. I don't like the dark spots under his eyes and recommend dodging them to make them less apparent (but don't get rid of them completely), and I don't like the way the color tone of the background looks against his skin. I also don't like the way he's pointing out of the frame. None of these are bad shots though.
I like your skin editing overall. Like I mentioned before, just reduce the dark spots under the eyes just a little bit to make him look less sleep deprived.

He as very pronounced bags under eyes and I wasn't able to get rid of them completely. Everything I tried further was just bad.
I'll edit this picture all over again based on what you already said about dodging and burning and sharpening.

Next time you shoot a male, try to use light that is at a slightly higher axis point in order to sculpt their features a bit more (cheek bones and jaw line).

I'll definitely shoot more men and portraits. It's new and challenging for me and I enjoy learning

 

[mmaria]

I won't get into the pose, there may have been 100's of pics shot and the ones "you" chose were what you are drawn to, my only thought is that their skin looks a little soft/smooth...losing cheek and jaw definition....

they had a pretty smooth skin and I really haven't done much to them... but cheek and jaw definition is something I'm struggling with.
I find this transition difficult tbh, but I won't give up

 

[mmaria]

@DanOstergren just to tell you a huge thank you!
I've downloaded tiff file and I saw what you've done. It's great! I hope I'll figure out how to edit. What's your settings for the brush when dodging and burning?

I'll give you a detailed response later, because I need to go now... just wanted you to know that I'm really grateful for the thoughts and the edit. I hope I can replicate it.

I was trying to fix bags under his eyes but I couldn't do that entirely because I don't understand how to change their tones or what else..

To dodge and burn, I create a new layer above a background and background copy layer by clicking "Layer>New Layer" in the menu bar. Before exiting the dialogue box for creating a new layer, I set the layer color to "gray", the layer mode to "soft light", and check the box that says "Fill with soft light neutral color (50% gray). Once I create the layer, I duplicate it a few times and name each gray layer for their different purposes ("skin", "contour", "hair", "eyes", "arms", background", or whatever part of an image I may be selectively dodging or burning).

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These dodge and burn layers should be above your background/background copy layers, and below your adjustment layers and masks. These are the layers I dodge and burn on; because I'm dodging on these separate layers, I'm causing no damage to the actual image layer. Use the dodge tool, usually set to "Midtones" with the exposure usually set between 2% and 10% for cleaning up the skin and softening skin gradients. Use the dodge tool set to the "Highlights" range in order to sculpt the face by making the highlights a little brighter, and use the burn tool set to the "shadows" range in order to carve out facial features a bit. Use the dodge tool set to "highlights" in order to bring out detail in the highlights of the models hair, or their clothing, or their eyes. Just make sure that you are making these changes on separate layers, that way you can selectively control the amount of each different adjustment by adjusting the opacity of the different layers.

If you need to selectively change the color of a certain spot of skin or whatever else, create a Selective Color adjustment layer:

Click on the white square (the layer mask) that is attached to your new adjustment layer. This will show a dialogue box like this:

Click "Invert". This will turn the layer mask's color to black. Next, select the paint brush tool and set the color to white, the opacity of the brush to %15, and make sure that the brush has a feathered edge. Make sure you click on the layer mask on your Color Balance adjustment layer to make sure it's selected, and then paint over the spot on the image that needs correcting, in this case the green area under the model's chin.

After you do this, click the layer thumbnail on the left side of the layer to bring up the dialogue box that controls the effect of the adjustment layer:

This control panel should appear:

Use the sliders to manipulate the color tones. It should just barely be affecting the area that you painted over on the layer mask.

I used the same technique to correct certain areas of his hair:

Before hair color correction:
http://orig15.deviantart.net/bcd5/f..._30_at_6_55_11_am_by_danostergren-da0vgxm.png
After correction:
http://orig06.deviantart.net/6576/f..._30_at_6_55_01_am_by_danostergren-da0vgxu.png

I hope I explained this in a way that you can follow (actually watching someone do this makes it much easier to understand). You can use this same inverted layer mask technique with hue/saturation adjustment layers to selectively saturate and reduce saturation of different areas of the image; this is important to know because dodging and burning can sometimes saturate and desaturate the areas affected, and using two Hue/Saturation adjustment layers (one to increase saturation and one to decrease it) with an inverted layer mask is an easy way to selectively correct this. You can also use the inverted layer mask technique with a curves, exposure or levels adjustment layer in order to selectively manipulate the exposure in the selected areas of the image. It's an incredibly useful technique for retouching, but like any technique it needs to be practiced and refined.

Also, are you sharpening your portraits? If not, I can show you a great technique for that as well.

I used to dodge and burn with curves layers with inverted mask.
I tried what you've explained on a photo I edited yesterday. It's more invasive than I used to but simpler, better and more versatile than the way I was doing it.
I just need more practice and I'll be doing it your way. Thank you!

And... I don't sharpen my images. I don't need to sharpen for what I do mostly.
I was sharpening images a few years back, but I totally forgot about it. I saw you use High pass filter, as smart filters and would you be willing to explain me that process? (I understand why smart filter but what else is involved in your sharpening?)

What I think I'm missing in my portraits is exactly what you did when you edited #3 dodge and burn, selective color, and sharpening.... and practice practice practice

 

[mmaria]

Dan - that's a great explanation, and shows just how complex a seemingly simple operation such as 'Dodge/Burn' can be when done properly. I think many members of the forum (Read, "Me", I really don't care about anyone else! ) would benefit from some further tutorials on your processing techniques if/when you have the time and inclination to share them.

The techniques really aren't as complicated as they seem, and become very easy once you incorporate them into your workflow. Just make sure you have a graphic tablet.

I've been thinking a lot about making video tutorials, as well as actions or adjustment layer packs, it's just a matter of making the recording happen and trying to get past my own nerves about sharing more than just a few screenshots publicly. I have insecurities about a lot of my work and the idea of recording my retouching process and sharing it with others is a bit nerve wracking. Sharing the actual photos for some reason is less so. I'm sure soon enough I'll get over it.

You really don't have to worry about things you mentioned. Your work is really really good and you have a lot to say...so go for it!
I'll be watching your video tutorials for sure and you're close to being over with those insecurities.
If you need someone to cc your first video, before it goes public I'd gladly do that (you could explain me sharpening you've done in a video, or live via Skype or how ever.... just a few ideas for a start..)

 

[pgriz]

With men, as with women, it works best when we can connect to the person within, or to what we think we imagine the person to be.

so you think failed making that connection this time?

No, not really. But by focusing on the "maleness" you might be putting your ideas ahead of what the person actually is. As you noted in the thread, once you got to working with the two, your earlier apprehensions went away - and that is how it should be. Masculinity or femininity is to a certain extent a social construct, as can be seen in the variations that exist in various cultures. Part of our skills as photographers and artists is to manipulate the viewer expectations to achieve the outcome we want artistically. That can be to confirm an existing idea, or to challenge it. Much of our expectation of what is "normal" is culturally-derived, and if one has the ability to participate in several cultural traditions, one is very sensitive to the differences between them. I happen to live on the intersection of three different cultures, and take on whichever cultural coat is appropriate under the circumstances. I suspect you too, by the virtue of your participating both in your country's life and in the culture of the internet, are straddling at least two (and I suspect more) cultural realities. It becomes part of your creative toolkit to choose which set of visual metaphors you choose to represent someone or something.

That was a long way to say - let your subject open up to you (as happened), and then you can decide what aspect you wish to portray.

 

[Tim Tucker]

mmaria, it seems as though you're out of your comfort zone. But I wouldn't worry. They're all very good and far better that I'd ever achieve. I think the members are judging against your past performances rather than as is.

@DanOstergren - Keep posting the tips! You have a great eye for portraits and also understand the relative nature of images. For instance when others who commented on the "green" looked at the absolute and edited the "green" globally by WB ((looked at the green and edited the green), you looked at the green and added the opposite (looked at the green and balanced it by adding the opposite). I'm not sure if you realise how different your approach is to some who've just started. They may edit absolute values and make global changes that reduce variation and lead to balance by equalisation (though trying to find out how other's do it!), you make local and subtle changes to enhance variation and achieve balance. It's all good information and very informative!

Back to the images mmaria but I don't want to cove the ground others have already. With relative differences in mind I find the subject and the background in the first image too contrasty. Not equalised but it's almost as if they're both competing at near maximum volume. I find it a little difficult to to discern the tones on the subject against the black in the contrast of the background. I would be inclined to lower the volume of both the background and the subject by way of contrast, but to do them in subtly different ways. I'd slightly raise the black point and lower the white point with the background, and in the subject keep those fixed and flatten the mid tone contrasts with a curves adjustment layer. It's quite subtle:

I really quite like the composition in the second image. I'm not sure if it's more leaning towards the learned or the intuitive. I might pull down the highlights of the background and just tighten a smidgen... Both offered only as an alternative and not as correct:

 

[FITBMX]

I love these! For a first tie you did a great job!!!
There is so much great info on this thread, I will have to read trough it later.