Looking for a first DSLR

[JacaRanda]

Then I'm glad you nodded off. Only a fool would continue to pursue a boring activity ... no matter how worthy. I always thought that was why we were told to pray before going to bed.

Yes, do stay awake. The forum is counting on you.

\

Are you my long lost sibling? Who is included in 'we'?

 

[soufiej]

Are those existential queries?


I prefer to think of my last post as didactic in nature.

 

[Jim Walczak]

Hey all, first post on the forums here, so I figured I'd include some background. I haven't used an SLR camera since a film 35mm pentax I had for college courses, but I find myself taking photos quite often as of late, and I'm bumping up against the limitations of the digital cameras I now have (a sony point and shoot, and a couple of cellphone cameras), so I'm looking to jump up to a DSLR.

I mostly shoot landscapes and product photos, but occasionally go for wildlife and car shows. The sheer number of options out there has me on informational overload, so I thought I'd get some advice from people with more experience (you guys!).

I noticed a lot of the articles online seem to suggest Nikon D3300, Pentax K-S2, and Canon Rebel T6s camera bodies for beginners, would one of these be a good fit? Is there something else I should consider? In either case, what lens(es) should I look at starting out with?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

This is just my own $.02...please use it only for what it's worth to you.

As I suspect you're beginning to surmise, any time you ask the question "which is best", there's a better than average chance that you're likely to start a heated debate....everyone has their favorite choices and personal opinions. As others have already mentioned, at the core with the brands given, Nikon, Canon and Pentax, all are fairly decent brands...more or less. In such a debate, my own personal opinion is simply this; it's NOT about the gear, it's about the person using it. The simple truth of the matter is that a good photographer can do more with a simple point and shoot than a bad photographer can with the most expensive gear! That said, this is just my own experience...

While this should probably be taken with a pinch of proverbial salt, first and foremost I recommend that people, newbie or pro alike, AVOID CANON. I was a Canon shooter for MANY years...I had become an avid 35mm shooter back in the early 80's with an old Canon FTb (all manual) and when I finally decided to step into the realm of digital back in the late 90's, Canon had seemed the logical choice at the time and I purchased a Rebel XT. I was immediately disappointed in that wow...even though I had stuck with Canon, I had to go out and buy all new lenses because my old lenses would NOT fit the EOS system. Ok...I bit the bullet and bought some new lenses and for the most part, I was actually pretty happy with that Rebel. When it came time for me to step up to a semi-pro camera, I purchased a 40D...and here's where my problems began. The camera worked fine for about a year and a half...just long enough for the warranty to expire. Then one rather warm day while out shooting "tall ships", the camera started getting flaky and over the course of the next couple of months, the image quality, particularly in terms of grain/noise began getting increasingly worse, until 1 day I got the infamous and ever so ambiguous "E99 error"...before buying a Canon brand camera, it's worth Goggling this error. At this point the camera only had around 20,000 clicks on the shutter. I called Canon's customer service and was informed that this was a rather common error on these cameras and that the typical cost for a repair would be "around $100", so I boxed up the camera and sent it in. After a few weeks, when I had not heard back from the service center, I called them and was told that while they hadn't actually looked at the camera yet, the repair would likely be around $180. Hhmmm. A few weeks later I called back again, this time I was told that AGAIN they still had not looked at the camera, but that I should expect the repair to be $250 - $280...?????? Ok...wow. At that point I was starting to get suspicious, however I also wanted my camera back, so I bit my lip and tried to be patient. Finally, nearly 2 months after having sent the camera in initially, I received a call saying that they finally looked at the camera and the repair would be $450! When I conveyed the information I had previously received, the ONLY thing the service/tech person had to offer was that I purchase a refurbished 40D for the same price!!!!!!!!! For well over 20 years I had been a loyal Canon user and I was truly outraged at the way I was treated. Needless to say, I simply had them send the camera back, un-repaired and used the money to buy a refurbished Nikon D90 instead...the camera I still use to this day! From my view point, Canon attempted what can be considered as little more than the ol' "bait and switch" con and in the time since, I've spoken with a number of people who've received this very same treatment...my situation was by no means unique. Obviously every major maker and brand of virtually ANYTHING has a few horror stories attributed to it's name, but personally I still feel that this whole situation was just WAY out of the ball park. As far as I'm concerned, Canon lost ALL credibility with such irresponsible tactics and service.

Now that issue aside...an issue that's rather significant to say the least...I also have to mention that after having purchased the refurb'd Nikon, I also noticed that the IQ of the Nikon was notably better than the Canon, particularly regarding the higher ISO ranges, even though both cameras were quite comparable on paper. I often had to struggle in Photoshop to clean up images from the Canon that were shot at ISO 1000 or higher, however with the Nikon D90 I can usually clean up the images quickly and effectively in Adobe RAW and have in fact shot some very decent quality images as high as ISO 3200. On that singular issue alone, even if I hadn't of had the very bad experience with Canon customer support that I did, I would easily recommend Nikon over the comparable Canon.

As far as Pentax goes, I will admit that I don't have much experience with this brand except to say that most people I've talked to say the newer Pentax lenses just don't really compare to other brands....and the reason I use a SLR/DSLR to begin with is so I can get fairly decent glass and have a few choices. This issue isn't AS significant with the 3rd party brands such as Tamron and Sigma (and I -am- very much a huge fan of Tamron lenses), however it's also been my experience that such brands are notoriously slower at releasing new lenses for Pentax and other brands than they are with Canon or Nikon. Likewise, when I was initially considering Canon and later changed over to Nikon, I did take a peek at some 3rd party lab results and while it's been a few years, at that time at least, the Pentax cameras didn't really compare with either Canon or Nikon regarding IQ....and that IQ fell off even further at higher ISO's. I do a fair amount of low light work on occasion, so that was a fairly large factor for me personally. This could be very different today, however I'd do a bit of thorough research into the subject before making a purchase. As far as things like the aforementioned weather sealing goes...honestly, unless you're planning to be shooting in the desert or at the arctic poles, I just wouldn't sweat this. MANY people shoot comparable brands on a daily basis without the weather sealing...never seems to cause your average shooter much of a problem. Likewise, while this is strictly a personal opinion, -if- I had any interest in vibration reduction, I'd want it on the specific lens instead of the body anyways...it seems to me that the amount of VR you'd need for a 300mm lens would be significantly different than something in the 18 to 24mm range. Not sure an end all, be all system is really the way to go there.

As far as Pentax goes, the bottom line is this; -if- you already had a significant foot locker full of older Pentax glass, I would likely suggest Pentax...lenses are after all, a rather considerable investment. That said, I think I read that you only have the one 50mm, so for the difference, I'd probably knock Pentax out of the running...you're gonna need new lenses anyways.

So with all of this in mind, while again any of those brands would likely serve you well as a newbie to DSLR's and while like everyone, I certainly have my own personal opinions as well, personally I'd suggest the Nikon...without hesitation. I will say that if you're still considering the D3300 that you also take a look at the D5200 as well, as price and features are pretty comparable. Also, unless you have a specific need for a 24mp sensor (megapixels...talk about catch terms these days), while I hate to make the field even more confusing, you also may wish to consider a refurbished D90 or something similar as well, particularly if you're thinking about upgrading to a more pro body somewhere down the line. The nice thing about the D90 (and other mid-consumer Nikons) is that like Pentax, you can use older Nikon lenses and sometimes you can find some real bargains. I've managed to snag a couple of older Nikkors for around $30 each and while both are manual, both are just sensationally sharp lenses. As always, do read comparative reviews and where ever possible, try to compare specific models side by side (as in walk into a camera store and compare real cameras with your own hands)...opinions on a forum can only go so far. Personally after all the problems I had with Canon and considering the Nikon seems to provide the best IQ for the work I do and how I shoot, I'll stick with Nikon...your mileage may vary.

Just my own opinions, but I hope it helps...good luck!

 

[soufiej]

I have disagreed with the above post and feel it would be beneficial to explain why I feel this is less then helpful advice.

Along with all the other parts of the audio/video/acoustics field I have worked in, I've also been in the maintenance/repair and servicing side of the market. I have a good deal of personal, face to face experience with consumers and I've heard a lot of their stories about the equipment they have owned, have loved and hated and would highly recommend or never advise anyone to own.

On the whole, modern electronics products are quite reliable. Most modern circuits are chip based and discrete components such as caps and resistors and drive circuits for motors are all combined on one chip. Literally thousands of such parts exist on one small chip. If the chip fails, it's replaced not repaired. Advances in technology mean a new chip has become available. Chip makers make their money making new chips, not old chips. That simply means old chips for repair are often not immediately available to the repair centers.

The difficulty you might experience with modern repair centers typically comes in the troubleshooting of the component since complexity of design is quite typical of modern mass market electronics.

With the number of small, independent dealerships shutting down due to competition from internet retailers (another thread entirely), many small independent repair shops are also being lost. That does not dismiss the fact things do still break.

While the failure rate of a modern piece of electronics is down to historic lows, no matter who builds it, they have to have a repair center. It's the law. Mercedes has a repair center. Rolex has a repair center. I have sold and worked with New York based McIntosh audio components for decades and I can assure you they too have a repair center. (I own several pieces of Mac tube gear from the 1960's and, guess what?, they don't keep parts in stock for my gear.)

My belief is you can find someone with a less than flattering story to tell about how they were treated by any large company. It's another one of those common sense things that the larger the company and the more successful the company, the more products they are putting in the market. The downside to selling lots of gear to lots of people will be there are more people who have bad feelings about that company. The percentage doesn't change, just the number of individuals.

This isn't to deny the poster's feelings regarding Canon (though I too have a Rebel Xt and it is still working without problems) but simply to say you can find someone with a gripe about virtually any company.

Manufacturers are being put in a position where, as more and more small shops close their doors, the manufacturer must turn to regional service centers. Troubleshooting in these centers often means setting up the component and searching for a very specific problem. This gets down to the tech sitting and watching the component and, if they turn their attention to another product for a short while, they may miss the occurrence of the problem in your component. Therefore, troubleshooting modern mass market electronics has become a much longer and more difficult issue.

Even when the problem is "well known", it may relate to a chip the manufacturer purchased from a subcontractor. Now the manufacturers are at the mercy of the subcontractor to supply repair parts. Unfortunately, subcontractors are likely to move on with new products and they will need to tool up to supply a large quantity of replacement parts. This can, in some cases, take months and at times, replacement of the component becomes the more advisable alternative.

It is unfortunate to say but this is what constant innovation - constant "buzzwords" - has given us.

All this is to say, I understand the poster's feelings regarding Canon but I would suggest anyone contemplating a new camera purchase simply do their research before they decide anything. In other words, keep an open mind. People do what they do for a multitude of reasons, not always logical reasons.

Things break, that's why there are repair centers. For the most part, if a modern mass market electronic component lasts through the first two months of use without a problem, odds are it will have a long, uneventful life. There are extended warranties available for most modern components.

When it comes to subjective opinions regarding image quality, do your research. The battle between Canon and Nikon advocates has been going on for decades.

 

[dcbear78]

Wow.... Wall of text. How many actually read all the last couple posts?

Let's clear up a bit of misinformation there. Anyone who touts the superior image quality and dynamic range of a Nikon crop sensor camera over a Pentax clearly is unaware they share the exact same Sony sensor. Lenses will make a difference but there are good lenses on both systems.

The differences will be in features like focus system, weather sealing, user interface etc where one will be better than the other and it's up to the individual to decide what is more important to them.

 

[thereyougo!]

I wonder if the OP will return after reading the above essays. No sorry I am being unkind. I mean dissertations.

Using a bad consumer experience to avoid a manufacturer isn't sensible. Not one manufacturer gets it right all the time and vice versa.

OP - make a list of the things you feel you need in your first camera. Take that list with you to a good dealer who will let you try cameras out. Test how each feels in your hand. This is important. If it doesn't feel right, you'll hardly use it.

I'd say that for your main use of landscape, weather sealing is advantageous. The in body stabilisation will mean you can buy old second hand Pentax lenses and get stabilisation - you save money! Pentax isn't Canikon, but they produce good bodies and great glass.

Make sure you have a wide angle for landscapes APS-C will limit you otherwise.

 

[soufiej]

"Make sure you have a wide angle for landscapes APS-C will limit you otherwise."


A bit misleading IMO.

It assumes things you do not know.



"I wonder if the OP will return after reading the above essays. No sorry I am being unkind. I mean dissertations."


It always amazes me that people with short attention spans try to read or post anything. If you lose interest, stop reading. There's no need to go snarky to the poster. You don't know what someone else might find interesting or informative.

Again, you are assuming things you do not know.

Personally, I feel many threads would be better answered if there were more information rather than the less we typically receive. Take your above statement as an example of this.

 

[thereyougo!]

"Make sure you have a wide angle for landscapes APS-C will limit you otherwise."


A bit misleading IMO.

It assumes things you do not know.



"I wonder if the OP will return after reading the above essays. No sorry I am being unkind. I mean dissertations."


It always amazes me that people with short attention spans try to read or post anything. If you lose interest, stop reading. There's no need to go snarky to the poster. You don't know what someone else might find interesting or informative.

Again, you are assuming things you do not know.

Personally, I feel many threads would be better answered if there were more information rather than the less we typically receive. Take your above statement as an example of this.

OP states clearly that one of his main interests is landscapes. Therefore more likely than not, he will need a wide angle lens. All the cameras he has listed are APS-C, therefore for the lens to act like a wide angle then he needs a 17 - 55 or similar. Yes you can shoot landscapes with longer lenses - I was shooting with a 80 -160 medium format lens earlier today.

There is absolutely no need for the diatribes in this thread, other than for the authors to massage their own self esteem.

K.I.S.S. Keep it Simple, Stupid is the philosophy that should be followed. Not reams of reams of things that aren't necessary. The OP was looking for advice on which of three bodies to choose, not an essay on the usefulness or otherwise of features and the ubiquity of buzzwords.

Keeping it relevant and simple is the best service to the OP.

 

[thereyougo!]

P.S. If there is something in the discussion that another poster might find more information on useful, then they should start their own thread or ask via PM. Too many threads get taken off on a tangent as it is. The first priority should be to answer the questions of the OP of the thread in question, not to start a philosophical discussion about the use of buzzwords in marketing of electronic devices. There is a section in the forum for that. This isn't it.

If you want a debate on buzzwords and useful features vs not useful etc, then start a thread here:

Photographic Discussions | Photography Forum

The Beginner's forum isn't IMO the right arena for such a debate.

 

[soufiej]

I didn't want, nor did I seek, a "debate on buzzwords".

You and others have made it so. Apply your own principles, KISS.

My words were words of advice IMO. Your words are, "I'm sooooo bored."

How many times need it be said? If you are bored, stop reading. Go do something else. Don't tell someone else to stop adding information they feel is pertinent.

Unless you can tell me what a poster does and does not know, then I don't logically see how you can try to edit someone else's post.


"There is absolutely no need for the diatribes in this thread, other than for the authors to massage their own self esteem."


The fact you did not provide that bit of information on a "wide" lens in your first post means you aren't very good at deciding what information should be provided. You still leave a lot assumed IMO.

Now, if you wish to further take this thread off course, ...

 

[thereyougo!]

The OP stated his priorities in his OP. Read it.

Landscape, product, then occasionally wildlife and cars

That is what I based my recommendation of a wide angle lens on. Quite simple really.

I'm not the one typing a 1,000 word essay. YOU ARE.

I'm not the one that started the debate on buzzwords. Guess what? YOU ARE. Read your own (long) posts.

They contain too many words to be useful. They are for a different section which I do read. It's not that I'm bored. It's the what you were discussing was largely irrelevant and too long winded for the OP's request.

The appropriate response? Recommendation of which camera, and lenses. Not an essay on what are and what are not ubiquitous. You turned it into photographic discussion thread. Now you are trying to turn that on me. It won't wash.

You can make a point on what is desirable or otherwise, but your first post is 1103 words, but that one at least bore some relation to the question though way too long winded for a beginner's section. Your diatribe on buzzwords was 57 words short of 1500. 1443 words of irrelevant debate that doesn't belong here.

It was photographic willy waving of the highest degree, and of no help to the OP or anyone else in a similar position.

 

[thereyougo!]

So simply put, my recommendation to the OP:

We do need more info from the OP, but since he is looking at these three cameras, I think it is safe to assume that he is comfortable with that as a budget for a body. We need to know specifically which Pentax lens he has. The 50 1.7 has been assumed, but might not be the case. A budget for lenses would be helpful, but as he is starting off a good wide angle lens would be a good starting point for his main activity - LANDSCAPE.

The Pentax has a good sensor with good DR and some features that will be helpful for landscape. Contrary to popular belief, landscapers do often shoot handheld - I do even with a 645Z and a heavy lens. Quickly changing light can negate the use of a tripod.

I'd go with the Pentax. Weather sealed for landscape and IBIS for flexibility - plus will work with older lenses.

Lenses? Will depend on budget, but since OP lists Landscapes first I'd start with a 17 - 55, though there is a 18 - 135 available for a longer lens. I would definitely look into getting a lens which a longer reach as this makes for more original landscape shooting.

There is a Pentax forum that has a database of reviews of pretty much every K mount lens in existence:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/

Just to be clear, I'm no brand fan boy, I have owned cameras from just about every brand there is.

 

[soufiej]

"Just to be clear, I'm no brand fan boy, I have owned cameras from just about every brand there is."


No doubt! You have a short attention span.

LOOK at your last four posts. It's taken you two tries in each case to post what you want to say.

Most of it has nothing to do with the subject of a new DSLR.

And, in the end, you have posted what?

A DIATRIBE.

Hopefully, the mods will clear this up.

 

[thereyougo!]

No I have read all of your posts. My attention span is far from small. You have ignored my point entirely that 3000 words between two posts is excessive and borderline Walter Mitty. I have answered the OPs question. All you have done is soothe your ego.

Note also that the OP was asking about lenses too

 

[charchri4]

LOL I don't know what you are worried about OP for he checked out weeks ago!