Missed focus question - HELP

[table1349]

For cyclist or any other moving sports for focusing the best setting is going to be a single focus point. Usually the center one, however once you get adept at focusing on action, you can begin to switch to other points as needed.

For focus mode you want whatever Nikon calls their continuous focus mode. Canon calls their AI servo.

If possible get your focus button off of the shutter button to one of the buttons on the back if possible. On Canon cameras there are a couple of programable buttons under the right thumb that serves for this purpose. This will allow you to constantly focus on the action and trip the shutter with out an focus lag. I am assuming that Nikon has custom functions that can be set.

This is the method I have been using and my issues may well be down to lag - would the Nikon view software record pre lag (hence the red square is sometimes on an out of focus area)?
Don't think the D5000 has a seperate button to hold in motion focus, it is by partial press of shutter release.
When shooting at f2 or less (accurate focus even more important) and the small focus square (dynamic or 3D) is aimed at the face on a moving subject it is critical that the lag is allowed for - will the 3D do this?

I shot Nikon from 1970 until a few years ago when I switched to Digital so I can't speak to Nikon features anymore. (FYI My question to Darrel is not meant as a smart a$$ question. I am truly interest in knowing if they have something that remarkably different.)
As for lag, there is split second of lag when the shutter button transitions from focus to shutter trip. This lag won't mean much when the action is moving parallel to the photographer.

When the action is moving towards or away from the photographer that split second can mean the difference between dead on and slightly out of focus.

One of the biggest problems I find with a lot of people trying to capture action have is keeping their focus point on the subject of action at all times. If that focus point slips off for even a spit second, the focus begins to hunt at that point with a loss of focus.

Check page 154 of you manual custom function f2. That appears to allow you to set you AF to another button I think. Also page 164 for the exact selection under the f2 custom function.

While a dead center subject is not always the desired framing, for someone getting started until they get proficient at tracking the action I find that focusing on center mass of the action/subject is the best method to provide in focus keepers. You can crop for effect later.

Once you get proficient at tracking the action you can select the focus point that you want and quickly switch while tracking allowing you to frame your shots a little more.

 

[Derrel]

I'd go with the wide-area, 7 point AF, and manually select the cyclist with the thumbpad, beginning with the AF system shifted to where you want to pick the cyclist up at first. In a horizontal shot, if they will be in the center, have a multi-AF-point pattern and set the multi-point group to where the cyclist will be. Leave some space for them to move into--don't let them "drive into the edge of the frame" or "drive out of the frame."

I have respect for gryphon'slair99, but the way he is telling you, a beginner, to use a modern Nikon is very typical of a Canon users who has a 1.3x body or two and top-grade pro lenses with powerful AF motors and shallow depth of field and a LOT of shooting experience...he is giving you a classic "pro-body + pro-glass" point of view that does not take into account that Nikon has a system called Scene Recognition System, that measures the distance and the direction and the density (3-D) + used R-G-B color analysis to break down the R-G-B color components of a uniform, caucasian skin tone, whatever, to get achieve what Nikon calls Lock-On. Caucasian skin tone, Asian skin tone, red uniforms, blue sky, green grass, white balance (flickering stadium, constant daylight, the longitude and latitude of the city entered in the clock, the day and date, the EV level, the lens in use, and a whole boatload of information is ALL entered into the exposure system, and decisions are made based on loads of data,at computer speed. Hardcore Photoshop users can quote chapter and verse on various R-G-B values of skin tone, wedding dress colors, tuxedo colors, pinks, yellows,etc. Same with the Nikon Scene Recognition system, or the 3-D Color Matrix system,etc,etc,etc. That is how Nikon knows what the subject is. Canon's 7D now has this system, a bit different, but they are imitating this approach now,and will probably continue to go this way more and more for beginner and intermediate-level bodies, which is where the D5000 to D90 Nikons are.

I can appreciate that gryophonlair99 is an experienced sports shooter, but the question about how does a modern Nikon know what the subject is shows a lack of familiarity with the difference between how Nikon meters and ties or links the metering data to autofocus systems in its **modern** bodies, and also ignores the fact that with the lower-end Nikon cameras,using consumer lenses, the AF module itself is nowhere near as "strong" as that in his professional-level Canon 1D bodies. I'm tired of people who see every technological explanation as some dig at Canon or another brand, and that is not what this is about--this is about a beginner using a NIKON camera, a lower-level body, with consumer-lvele lenses, typically the 18-55, 70-300, or 55-200 lenses which have very weak AF motors, and fairly depth of field at longer distances, with very little subject/background isolation to "help" the AF system. In a word, the little Nikons like the D5000 are designed to be used by people with slow-speed consumer lenses that have focal length/aperture combos like 200mm and f/5.6, so that at 30 meters, EVERYTHING is fairly much more or less decently focused...and those lenses work a lot slower than top-level glass like my 200mm f/2 VR-G or 300/2.8 AFS-II--those lenses themselves have big,beefy AF motors, as do comparable Canon lenses.

The thing about the consumer-level Nikons is that they are designed for multi-area AF that works vastly differently than Canon has. This is not a dig at Canon, and it is something many people do not understand. My answer above was tailored to make a point to a beginner shooting a Nikon D5000--not a pro-level Canon with $6,000 and $8,000 lenses. The advice to use Center AF-only is not applicable to modern Nikons which have color-aware autofocus AND metering, linked together, when a beginner is running the camera, and is using modest consumer-level lenses with slow apertures. You NEED the predicative ability of AF-S focusing, not screw-drive lenses, and you need a bit of an edge in terms of rapid AF acquisition when using Nikon's modern, slow zooms like the 55-200 or the 70-300 f/4.5~5.6 lenses...they are not nearly as capable as the pro-level lenses that gryphonslair99 is used to using, and the D5000 does not have the same type of AF system as any Canon, or any pro-level 1-series Canon body.

So, there's a better explanation of why I suggest using more AF points when using the D5000...the center AF point is badly impacted by the f/5.6 max aperture of most consumer lenses when used on the D5000 and other low-end Nikon AF modules on the entry-level bodies. You need the extra "assist" to make that kind of beginner's gear work to its potential. If you mount a 200/2 or 300/2.8, you'll buy yourself $5,000 to $7,999 worth of focusing motor power, no expenses spared, and shallow depth of field, and you'll also get into cross-type AF and the ability to focus with a TC,etc,etc.

If you have beginner gear and a modern Nikon, you need to realize that trying to out-think the camera, or to make it work like equipment made even a few years earlier is not in your best interests. When you have a weak AF module, but a 3-D, color-distance-direction aware system waiting for YOU to pick the target and then allow the computer to follow the target wherever it moves in the frame, then you are using the technology the way Nikon has engineered the camera. You do not have the top-level lenses and bodies or the experience that gryponslair99 has, and so you need to set yopur gear up to use the kind of gear **YOU** have, which is a D5000, not a 1D series and a 400/2.8.

If you want to really,really understand the newer Nikon AF and metering systems, you might want to invest some money in one of the Thom Hogan "complete Guide to the Nikon D_____" books. There are so many different Nikon AF and metering systems nowadays, and there are many,many modes and the engineering is complicated, that it takes many,many pages and at least two weeks to even begin to understand how Nikon engineers have designed these new systems to work. The Complete Guide book series (19 books in all) are the best single-source books a pwrson can find to describe the how,what,and the why of multi-point AF. But the bottom line is this" with the consumer Nikons,and the slower f/stop lenses at outdoor distances, you are barely into cross-type AF at f/5.6, and frankly the AF system in the body and the AF system in the cheaper AF-S lenses is very weak compared to pro-level gear and f/2.8 or faster prime lenses, and the beginner needs to allow the camera to work the way Nikon designed it to work, for beginners, with consumer level equipment.

I hope that explains the logic sufficiently well. THis isn;lt about Nikon vs Canon, it's about modern,different engineering and how consumer level gear works best,as opposed to professional level lenses that cost 10 to 20 times more than a D5000 body, and lenses that bog down to f/5.6 at 150mm....not tele-primes. This isn't some Canon vs Nikon pissing contest, this is simple engineering and differences between older approaches and pro vs lower-level gear and how it actually works to its strengths.

 

[table1349]

I'd go with the wide-area, 7 point AF, and manually select the cyclist with the thumbpad, beginning with the AF system shifted to where you want to pick the cyclist up at first. In a horizontal shot, if they will be in the center, have a multi-AF-point pattern and set the multi-point group to where the cyclist will be. Leave some space for them to move into--don't let them "drive into the edge of the frame" or "drive out of the frame."

I have respect for gryphon's lair, but the way he is telling you, a beginner, to use a modern Nikon is very typical of a Canon users who has a 1.3x body or two and top-grade pro lenses with powerful AF motors and shallow depth of field...he is giving you a classic "pro-body + pro-glass" point of view that does not understand that Nikon has a system called Scene Recognition System, that measures the distance and the direction and the density (3-D) + used R-G-B color analysis to break down the R-G-B color components of a uniform, caucasian skin tone, whatever, to get achieve what Nikon calls Lock-On. Caucasian skin tone, Asian skin tone, red uniforms, blue sky, green grass, white balance (flickering stadium, constant daylight, the longitude and latitude of the city entered in the clock, the day and date, the EV level, the lens in use, and a whole boatload of information i ALL entered into the exposure system." Hardcore Photoshop users can quote chapter and verse on various R-G-B values of skin tone, wedding dress colors, tuxedo colors, pinks, yellows,etc. Same with the Nikon Scene Recognition system, or the 3-D Color Matrix system,etc,etc,etc.

I can appreciate that gryophonlair99 is an experienced sports shooter, but the question about how does a modern Nikon know shows a lack of familiarity with the difference between how Nikon meters and tis metering data to autofocus in its **modern** bodies, and also ignores the fact that with the lower-end Nikon cameras,using consumer lenses, the AF module itself is nowhere near as "strong" as that in his professional-level Canon 1D bodies. I'm tired of people who see every technological explanation as some dig at Canon or another brand, and that is not what this is about--this is about a beginner using a NIKON camera, a lower-level body, with consumer-lvele lenses, typically the 18-55, 70-300, or 55-200 lenses which have very weak AF motors, and fairly depth of field at longer distances, with very little subject/background isolation to "help" the AF system. In a word, the little Nikons like the D5000 are designed to be used by people with slow-speed consumer lenses that have focal length/aperture combos like 200mm and f/5.6, so that at 30 meters, EVERYTHING is fairly much more or less decently focused...and those lenses work a lot slower than top-level glass like my 200mm f/2 VR-G or 300/2.8 AFS-II--those lenses themselves have big,beefy AF motors, as do comparable Canon lenses.

The thing about the consumer-level Nikons is that they are designed for multi-area AF that works vastly differently than Canon has. This is not a dig at Canon, and it is something many people do not understand. My answer above was tailored to make a point to a beginner shooting a Nikon D5000--not a pro-level Canon with $6,000 and $8,000 lenses. The advice to use Center AF-only is not applicable to modern Nikons which have color-aware autofocus AND metering, linked together, when a beginner is running the camera, and is using modest consumer-level lenses with slow apertures. You NEED the predicative ability of AF-S focusing, not screw-drive lenses, and you need a bit of an edge in terms of rapid AF acquisition when using Nikon's modern, slow zooms like the 55-200 or the 70-300 f/4.5~5.6 lenses...they are not nearly as capable as the pro-level lenses that gryphonslair99 is used to using, and the D5000 does not have the same type of AF system as any Canon, or any pro-level 1-series Canon body.

So, there's a better explanation of why I suggest using more AF points when using the D5000...the center AF point is badly impacted by the f/5.6 max aperture of most consumer lenses when used on the D5000 and other low-end Nikon AF modules on the entry-level bodies. You need the extra "assist" to make that kind of beginner's gear work to its potential. If you mount a 200/2 or 300/2.8, you'll buy yourself $5,000 to $7,999 worth of focusing motor power, no expenses spared, and shallow depth of field, and you'll also get into cross-type AF and the ability to focus with a TC,etc,etc.

If you have beginner gear and a modern Nikon, you need to realize that trying to out-think the camera, or to make it work like equipment made even a few years earlier is not in your best interests. When you have a weak AF module, but a 3-D, color-distance-direction aware system waiting for YOU to pick the target and then allow the computer to follow the target wherever it moves in the frame, then you are using the technology the way Nikon has engineered the camera. You do not have the top-level lenses and bodies or the experience that gryponslair99 has, and so you need to set yopur gear up to use the kind of gear **YOU** have, which is a D5000, not a 1D series and a 400/2.8.

If you want to really,really understand the newer Nikon AF and metering systems, you might want to invest some money in one of the Thom Hogan "complete Guide to the Nikon D_____" books. There are so many different Nikon AF and metering systems nowadays, and there are many,many modes and the engineering is complicated, that it takes many,many pages and at least two weeks to even begin to understand how Nikon engineers have designed these new systems to work. The Complete Guide book series (19 books in all) are the best single-source books a pwrson can find to describe the how,what,and the why of multi-point AF. But the bottom line is this" with the consumer Nikons,and the slower f/stop lenses at outdoor distances, you are barely into cross-type AF at f/5.6, and frankly the AF system in the body and the AF system in the cheaper AF-S lenses is very weak compared to pro-level gear and f/2.8 or faster prime lenses, and the beginner needs to allow the camera to work the way Nikon designed it to work, for beginners, with consumer level equipment.

I hope that explains the logic sufficiently well. THis isn;lt about Nikon vs Canon, it's about modern,different engineering and how consumer level gear works best,as opposed to professional level lenses that cost 10 to 20 times more than a D5000 body, and lenses that bog down to f/5.6 at 150mm....not tele-primes.

Like I said in my post above this one, my question was not meant to be a Smart A$$ question. I left Nikon in 2004 with my switch to digital. I am used to the Canon system now that incorporates the same focus basics across the entire range of bodies. Focus speeds change and the number of focus points depending on bodies but not the modes themselves. And things like bicycle racing often can have multiple points of action which is why I want to only focus on the action I want.

I truly wish that someone, Nikon, Canon, I don't really care whom, except Lieca, (Hey they are a heck of a lot more expensive than either canon or nikon) could develop a system that can track multiple actions and differentiate between them and produce sharp shots. Until then I stick to the tried and true since it is what I know.

 

[Derrel]

yes, I understand it was not meant to be smart-alecky, I do. I don't want to come off that way, but the response is for whoever might read it, not just you.
It's hard to talk about the 3-D metering and AF connection without sounding like it's one of those brand war things. I just want to explain to beginners some of the "why"....the OP's dilemma is a good example of using an older approach and having it not work as well as trusting the camera to show as he puts it, its "cleverness". It is calculator vs slide rule. Very different.


I'll summarize what I wrote in this way: Gryphonslair99 has been driving a Porsche Turbo Carrera for quite some time...and the OP asked, "How is the best way to get onto the freeway when a pair of triple-trailer semi trucks are barreling down the freeway?" The OP is almost out of on-ramp, and the OP is driving a 2010 Ford Fiesta...he doesn't quite have the "Car" the gryphonslair99 has with his top-flight Canon gear...so the Porsche Turbo guy's suggestion of stuff her into 3rd and tach her and outrun both trucks up just isn't tailored to the Ford Fiesta driver...the Fiesta will not go even 50 in 3rd gear, let alone 85 MPH...

 

[table1349]

I'll summarize that entire answer this way: Gryphonslair99 has been driving a Porsche Turbo Carrera for quite some time...and the OP asked, "How is the best way to get onto the freeway when a pair of triple-trailer semi trucks are barreling down the freeway?" The OP is almost out of on-ramp, and the OP is driving a 2010 Ford Fiesta...he doesn't quite have the "Car" the gryphonslair99 has with his top-flight Canon gear...so the Porsche Turbo guy's suggestion of stuff her into 3rd and tach her and outrun both trucks up just isn't tailored to the Ford Fiesta driver...the Fiesta will not go even 50 in 3rd gear, let alone 85 MPH...

Hey Porsche or Pinto, If you don't gun it you are going to get run over.:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Like I said, Canon is pretty consistent, both my 1DMkIII and my 40D focus the same. The 40D just isn't quite as fast as the 1DMkIII.

 

[Ady]

So the highly developed focusing technology fed down to the D5000 should ensure I don't have the focusing issues I have had recently providing I let the camera 'think' for me :mrgreen:

Thanks for the time taken in responding to this thread - Derrel, did you mean the 11 point focus mode (as in 3d????).

 

[dhilberg]

I've used the 3D tracking mode on my D90. It works pretty slick, but since it uses color for the tracking it will get confused if there are many subjects of the same color, i.e. sports teams. Better to use dynamic mode and manually select the AF point. The camera will track the chosen subject also, but it works differently. Not sure on the technicalities, you'll have to look that up.

 

[KmH]

Don't think the D5000 has a seperate button to hold in motion focus, it is by partial press of shutter release.

It's the AEL/AFL button on the back of your camera. You set it's function in menu f2. See page 164 of your D5000 users manual.

A review of the users manual section on Focus, beginning on page 54, may be in order.

 

[table1349]

I've used the 3D tracking mode on my D90. It works pretty slick, but since it uses color for the tracking it will get confused if there are many subjects of the same color, i.e. sports teams. Better to use dynamic mode and manually select the AF point. The camera will track the chosen subject also, but it works differently. Not sure on the technicalities, you'll have to look that up.

They have a focusing system that uses color? That does sound interesting.

 

[Ady]

Don't think the D5000 has a seperate button to hold in motion focus, it is by partial press of shutter release.

It's the AEL/AFL button on the back of your camera. You set it's function in menu f2. See page 164 of your D5000 users manual.

A review of the users manual section on Focus, beginning on page 54, may be in order.

Will set that up and give it a whirl, thanks. How much more accurate is this than the half depression of the shutter release - is it just the timing is faster due to the separate buttons?

 

[table1349]

Don't think the D5000 has a seperate button to hold in motion focus, it is by partial press of shutter release.

It's the AEL/AFL button on the back of your camera. You set it's function in menu f2. See page 164 of your D5000 users manual.

A review of the users manual section on Focus, beginning on page 54, may be in order.

Will set that up and give it a whirl, thanks. How much more accurate is this than the half depression of the shutter release - is it just the timing is faster due to the separate buttons?

After a little practice you should find it to be second nature. It allows you to continuously track the action without having to think and allows you to anticipate the action and react instantly with the shutter release.