motcon wrongly closes my critique thread.

heres where he did it in another thread
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85808

with a new member, instead of saying here let me move your thread, and heres why i'm moving it, please do this in the future. he said, oop, no picture, wrong section, thread locked.

does anyone else see a problem with this?

no one should, i think. allowing people to continually post in the incorrect forum knowing that the mods will clean it up is encouraging wrong behavior. is it not the responsibility of the poster to read the guidelines, then post appropriately? as much as i'd like to be altruistic enough to move every thread that doesn't belong, it isn't my/the mods responsibility. it really shouldn't be too much to ask for a potential poster to first read the guidelines.


further, i'd expect a new member to post more accurately and correctly than a seasoned veteran. it's easy to just whip around here and post 'where ever' if you've been here a while.


i do think you should post in feedback/suggestions, rather than singling out what i have done with which you took exception, even though the actions were by the guidelines.
 
so,

if you choose to accept a critique someone gave does the thread die?

why should it? the original poster of an image should be satisfied that he/she did everything to the best of his/her ability. posting an image with a disclaimer *this isn't the final image will cause the post to be closed. it isn't 'when an image is deemed final' that the post will be closed. it's when someone admits that a posted image isn't final that it will be closed. ideally, someone posts a photograph that was created with all mind, heart, and soul and that thread runs forever with varying critiques so that we all learn something. are we on the same page now?


so,


can a digital representation of an organic work be passable as a finished product? and does it matter if a finished organic work (print)is in existance if the digital data (film scan) has already been obtained?

i believe so, as my critique thread is now open again.

yes, unless a person states, 'this is a scan, i plan to create a final improved print later in the darkroom.'
 
With referance to the "Race" thread

Well I have a problem with the way that thread was handled.
It did come across as a bit rude to me to be honest.

How about we try and be nice to new members, that way they might want to stay on this forum.

Maybe take a leaf out of LaFoto's book, see post #4 http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85725
nice and polite and even a welcome to the forum.
 
i'm sure this will be clarified to us in the future. i agree that critiques can go further if you've submitted a finished product to the best of your ability. however, be careful that you don't say "yes i agree i should change that" because your work may no longer be considered finished.

you were perfect up until that statement :)

if a person posts an image as final, we take it as final. the critiques of that image should run for as long as we have the ability to type. if the original poster says, 'yes, perhaps i should change that..', well, that is precisely why the forum exists and the thread will not be closed.

post an image as your final 'i've done everything that i can do' image, then let's all have some fun and learn.
 
With referance to the "Race" thread

Well I have a problem with the way that thread was handled.
It did come across as a bit rude to me to be honest.

How about we try and be nice to new members, ...

it isn't polite to inform the person that he/she posted in the wrong forum, then also give him/her a link to an appropriate forum? that was all that was done in that thread. i'd love for him/her to get feedback on his image, so i suggested a forum that is more appropriate.
 
1. motcon, i'm only calling out the face to the official because thats what i had experience with . . . nothing against you really.

2."yes, unless a person states, 'this is a scan, i plan to create a final improved print later in the darkroom.' " (cool i quoted motcon paraphrasing or quoting me)

--well about that, if i scan it, and that scan is going to be what i use to present to you all does it matter if i havn't printed it in the darkroom yet? with regards to what originally got the thread closed - the contrast in the midtones - when i print it the midtones won't look like that. but what you get to see is a digital reproduction of my work. why does it matter if i havn't printed a final work or not when the scan that will be used to give a digital representation is already in existance? THE BOTTOM LINE IS I CAN'T SHOW A FINAL DARKROOM PRINT. even if i scan the print it would be different.

motcon, in the last post about 'you were perfect up to that point' or whatever, am i to understand that if i post a work that was complete in my mind, and someone suggested something that made me decide i should change it or whatever and i say "ok, i agree that should be changed, i think i'll fix that" the thread will stay open?

how is that different than in my thread saying i'll fix that in the darkroom? (even though that wasn't my intent in the comment, but to bring up that its a digital reproduction that doesn't accurately depict the prints tones, but i accept as a final for here)


---
 
motcon, in the last post about 'you were perfect up to that point' or whatever, am i to understand that if i post a work that was complete in my mind, and someone suggested something that made me decide i should change it or whatever and i say "ok, i agree that should be changed, i think i'll fix that" the thread will stay open?

how is that different than in my thread saying i'll fix that in the darkroom? (even though that wasn't my intent in the comment, but to bring up that its a digital reproduction that doesn't accurately depict the prints tones, but i accept as a final for here)


---

it's very different. a person posting an image that he/she doesn't believe to be complete is a work in progress. a person who posts an image as 'final' has truly done all that he/she can do with that image. he/she states, 'here is an image with which i am perfectly happy. i know of nothing further that i can do to improve it. please critique it.' that's when everyone benefits in learning.

when someone posts an image with a disclaimer, 'i know this area is messed up, i'll fix it later.' is that really a finished image? if it's posted as such, then how can anyone comment on that 'messed up' area? one can't, therefore; there's no learning to be had.
 
im moving this to the feedback section.... were all comments will be noted.
 
yay! thread move.

i disagree though, as for my image, i believe its as complete as it can get in digital form. and i'm happy with it, even though the midtones aren't accurately reflected. and i disagree that if one area is known to be imperfect in the creators mind that learning cannot be had in other areas.

i understand where your coming from i think, but were in a grey area here (pun intended :)) and that when its a digital recreation of a film product that there should be some leeway. I cant get the tones exactly the same as they print. i'm aware of that. However, should my being aware of that deny me critiques?
 
yay! thread move.

i disagree though, as for my image, i believe its as complete as it can get in digital form. and i'm happy with it, even though the midtones aren't accurately reflected. and i disagree that if one area is known to be imperfect in the creators mind that learning cannot be had in other areas.

see, that's the problem. how does one critique the entirety of an image if one or two areas aren't complete? each and every component of a photograph make up the whole. a proper critique can't be made unless we understand the relationship of each piece of a photograph. that said, a work in progress can't be critiqued properly. it's not possible. it's asking the viewer to comment on a half before knowing the whole and how the existing half will impact the whole.

i understand where your coming from i think, but were in a grey area here (pun intended :)) and that when its a digital recreation of a film product that there should be some leeway. I cant get the tones exactly the same as they print. i'm aware of that. However, should my being aware of that deny me critiques?

o man, i hate puns ;)

it was never stated that any form of reproduction is not permitted. that's not in the guidelines, it's not in any text that i've written. anywhere. if all you have is a digital reproduction, then post it as final and let the chips fall where they may. if you then later say, 'well, i intended to fix that area when i do the final version', is that fair to the people doing critique? not in the least. post what you have in any form as your final. let's have fun doing critique.


edit: ya know, if one were to carefully read this thread, one would realize that you and i violently agree on these issues. we're just locked in a struggle of semantics.
 
IMHO the new Critique Forum is not going work just no many rules, keep it simple
Jeff, I appreciate the confusion that is being caused with this whole new approach.

Honestly, I thought by the end that the committee did an excellent job of keeping the rules/guidelines pretty straightforward, and minimal in number.

First, they had to outline and agree on what was wrong with the old critique forum and how to address these issues. It seemed that there was a lot of pretty good information to be had in there - we have so many members who know how to offer up critique - but a huge problem was wading through the off-topic posts just to get to the heart of it.

So one of the first decisions was that the critical analysis forum would be much more formal in approach. No one is trying to come off particularly heavy-handed; it's just a giant undertaking and moderation has to be consistent, above everything else.

So with consistency in mind, the templates came into being. That way one moderator can't say something to a member that another moderator wouldn't. Everyone needs to hear the same thing, or it will be chaotic.

In a nutshell, the aim is to keep out idle (non-substantive) comments, stick to topic, and in that way anyone reading these threads knows they won't have to wade through a lot of off topic chatter just to get to that one informative post where something can be learned.

Finished work offered up for in-depth critique (not just PS edits) in one forum....works in progress, with technical questions or problems, in the other. Image size, number of images, etc., etc. Not too big a change in the guidelines here.

I hope that clarifies the objective somewhat, and lessens the surprise of seeing the templates. They're really helpful because they are quick, and as you know none of the moderators can be here 24/7. So speed and consistency were also part of the reasoning.

Digital Matt and Motcon are the section moderators for the critique forums, btw. If you have any questions, or need clarification before you post something, by all means shoot them a PM.

They obviously want this to work, to be a real benefit to TPF. But they need your buy-in and support, and that means communication! :)
 
I think another point needs to be addressed here as well, and that is simply that the concept behind the critique areas is fairly specific. The idea is to give detailed feedback and critique on an image. This is not an area where "Great shot!" is the goal.

While I don't want to alienate people from the critique area, I also want to point out that the Gallery forums on the site also provide feedback and critique but on a much less formal level. If you want to get general opinions about your work and just want to enjoy sharing it, the galleries are the place to go, but if you want much more detailed feedback and analysis, the critique forums are the place.

This doesn't really address much of what was spoken about earlier, but it is a point that I wanted to make. As to what was said earlier, its impossible for us to cover every situation and have a response that everyone will be happy with. In the end, we're doing our best to do what we believe provides the most value, otherwise it may as well be just another gallery.

Thanks for your understanding and willingness to help us get this new version of the critique forum and bear with us while we go through some growing pains and possible bouts of confusion. :D
 
BTW, I think that 'formal' critique is perhaps a misnomer. What I envision in this section is not necessary formally structured critique but more actual thought about the images. Why the viewer thinks it works or not, whether the balance, color, tone, treatment, composition all are appropriate and well-done.

The emphasis on detailed repair, how to do it and what the 'repaired' product would look like is not what I would want from a critique.

OTOH, I find the graphic a little offensive. I wouldn't mind a standard message but the graphic seems over the top. (I don't mind a speeding ticket nearly as much if the policeman is pleasant.)
 
I do understand that a lot of work goes into finding the best solution that is a good balance for everyone, but for me this really doesn't seem like the choice.

It seems to me that when fixing this, a previous problem was ignored. Ask any moderator that routinely moved threads in and out of critique, and they will probably tell you that if people simply followed directions and read the FAQ's and guidelines, we wouldn't have these issues. That being said, I don't understand how a more complicated setup is going to solve this problem. Yes, maybe these new rules do provide a more rigid location to drop your thread, but what good is that if nobody is reading them?

The "less-personal" approach to keeping things in line will not last either. I can only imagine the flood of PM's that will be sent every day saying that their thread was wrongly closed, etc. I was told that this was meant to make things more efficient for moderating and with less "engagement with users." Reading that now it sounds silly really. This forum has always been about the family atmosphere and friendliness for me. Telling me I have until June 28th to modify my post because I simply told someone I think they should try black and white, that doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

To be honest, I honestly would've liked to see the critique forum deleted. Thats not to say that I don't appreciate all the work that's been done to fix it, please don't take it that way. I think that the galleries should be the place where images are posted, it says right in the description "general critique." Take your critique, learn from it. So what if there are a few "Nice shot!" comments in there, this isn't a restaurant it's an online community with 10,000 members, take what you get. If you want to ask a specific question, go ahead and ask it right in your post, you shouldn't have to pop on down to a different section to get your question answered. Plenty of people here are capable and willing to help with a question regardless of where it's posted.

I really am going to give it a chance, I promise. But I do see some aspects of this to be straying away from what's made this place such a great, welcoming environment.

Eric.
 

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