N00b Q's - People Photography Logistics

[ElNico]

So, I asked about getting into the field of people photography (modeling as opposed to candid), and was introduced to the concept of "time for print." Although there were some suggestions that potentially could see me working with people who, like me, are interesting in doing this just for the fun of it, one of the main takeaways from that conversation for the purposes of what I want to talk about here was that I'm most likely going to end up working at least some of the time with aspiring models who, while perhaps not well established, will at least have had some significant exposure to "the industry." Most of what I want to ask about here has to do with the expectations that such models would have of me.

My general question can be phrased as this: Apart from the various forms of compensation to the model (prints, refreshment, maybe transportation), what "resources" am I as the photographer expected to bring to the deal?

I have some specific things I want to ask about, but there are probably other things that I haven't even though of; so if someone wanted to be a REAL chum, maybe they could just break down a description of what a typical TFP shoot looks like. (Unless I really have covered everything worth mentioning.) Apart from that, here are things that specifically occurred to me which I am wondering about.



Location. This is the thing I'd most like an answer to, as it's one of the biggest things I currently see standing in the way of me just going out and doing an amateur shoot, and it's my only question that applies even if I'm working with family or friends who are helping me out. As a photographer without their own studio, I have to say, I'm having trouble thinking of public places in which it is both appropriate to be doing a photoshoot, and it is also easy for the model to change outfits. The only option I can think of is a park with public bathrooms; and even then, not all parks have those. Anyone have any other suggestions?

With respect to "expectations" from models if I'm NOT just working with family and friends; if I don't have a studio, am I expected to rent one? Is it considered appropriate to ask a model to change outfits, up to and including underwear, in her or my car? Or, if we're shooting in an alley in the Abandoned Warehouse District where there is probably no one else around, is it appropriate to ask her to just step around the corner to change? Both of those solutions are things she COULD do if willing; but is it considered normal in the industry to ask a model to do that?



Clothes. I imagine that at least some of the time, if not the majority of the time, the photographer is the one supplying outfits. Is it expected, then, for me to have a stock supply of various articles across all sizes? That actually sounds to me like a reasonable investment (at least assuming I'm buying stuff on Ebay and not at Forever 21), so my real question about that is whether it's expected/normal to have that investment taken care of already when starting out; or if it's instead normal to first go through a period of having to buy clothes appropriate for a particular model as I go along, or else only be able to accommodate models of limited sizes.

While I can see stocking up on most types of clothes as a reasonable investment, though, there are two articles for which sizing is especially specific; bras and shoes. I imagine heels are heels in the majority of cases, and while not every girl has a million shoes I image most girls own at least one set of heels; so I figure I can usually just ask a model to bring a snazzy pair of heels and we're good to go. (Am I wrong?) But in cases where a bra is a part of the shoot's concept, what I do I do about stock in that area? I'm aware that as far as cup size, 32D = 34C = 36B etc; so it occurred to me to adjust for an off band size by using extenders or safety pins or similar tricks; is that normal?

Also, while I can always ask a model to bring any clothing, accessories, underwear etc that she wants to contribute, how appropriate is it to ask her what she has beforehand, with respect to the concept I have in mind for the shoot? (Do you have a blue maxi skirt, do you have a red bra, etc.) Is that even done at all?



Styling. It was mentioned to me at one point that I'd be expect to provide a model's "hair and makeup." Assuming that I don't own a studio and have at least one beautician in my employ, how does that work, exactly? Do I compensate her some amount of money for the cosmetics she's assumed to have used up on this venture? Does she go to the salon before meeting with me, and then I pick up the bill? Am I asking her for a receipt?



Equipment. Obviously, better equipment makes for better results, so equipment is worth investing in in general. But what, if any, is the minimum equipment I need in order to prevent a model from thinking "This person clearly has no idea what they're doing?" I currently have a digital SLR camera with what I imagine are typical options (or at least typical in 2011 when I bought it), and I can probably get my hands on a tripod, but that's it.



Sorry for the somewhat long post; hopefully the first two questions won't take as long to answer as they do to read lol. As always thanks a ton for the help and advice!!

 

[cherylynne1]

I don't think you should buy clothes, shoes, or beauty products of any kind. And I don't think there's a need to ask her to change unless she wants to. (Definitely not in your car, that's really weird.) You need to focus on your own equipment. You have a basic camera? No tripod? Which lenses? Any lighting? Any reflectors or modifiers? Have you read any books on the subject?

The only reason you would provide clothes is if you are a fashion designer. If there is a specific outfit you need to promote, then yes, you would need to provide that. But most models would expect money for advertising like that (and rightfully so.) If you just have a concept in mind, you can ask if she has anything that would work. If she has nothing appropriate, and you're completely determined to do that concept shoot, then you could purchase one outfit specifically for that model in that shoot, in which case you would ask her size. As for bras, those sizes are not the same, the sizes are different for good reasons. Perhaps you're thinking that they are equal as far as the bust measurement (although your numbers are a bit off) would be if you were designing an outfit for her, but those bras absolutely will not fit every girl with that bust measurement.

(As an aside about the bra measurements: when you measure a woman's bust, you are measuring around the fullest part of her chest. Let's say that three women all measure 38". Woman A is a 32F/32DDD. That means that her band size (the area directly below her breasts) measures 32" and her breasts add 6". Woman 2 is a 34D. That means her band is 34 and her breasts add an additional 4". Woman 3 is a 36B, which means her band is 36 and her breasts are 2". These are drastically different bra sizes, even though they would all fit into the same size top. These women could not switch bras, the fit would be so poor that it would be obvious even through clothing.)

For location, if you have no equipment, a studio won't do you much good anyway, and you're going to need practice with natural lighting. I would start with public areas where people are coming and going pretty frequently until you have a good reputation and former models who can vouch for you. Yes, this means it will sometimes be difficult to get people out of the background of your shot, but that's just the reality of the world we live in. And like I said, try doing photo shoots with just one outfit, maybe adding and taking off layers or accessories for different looks. If the model wants to change, that's fine, and many models aren't real squirmish about changing in front of people, especially if they've done any runway work. But for a photographer without any experience or testimonials to ask young girls to meet him in deserted areas and then change all the way down to their underwear...that's definitely something that will send most girls running. For now, sacrifice your concept to ensure the girl's feeling of safety. Better yet, have her bring a friend along.

For cosmetologists, sometimes you can get them to agree to TFP as well, especially if you advertise with local beauty schools. However, most models are probably fairly adept at doing their own make-up. Again, it's not something I would worry about until you have a highly stylized photo shoot where you need to control every aspect. If you were paying for it, it would probably be because you need that absolute control (i.e., she needs smoky eyeshadow with golden tones, winged eyeliner, and mauve lips, not "make her look good") so you would want to be there approving everything that the cosmetologist does and could pay her yourself. If you don't need that level of control, let the model do her own.

However, if were a model, I would be wondering why you have money to buy me clothes and pay someone else to do my make-up and hair, but have no money to pay me. Just saying.

For now, focus on technique and your own equipment. Guide the models into your idea, but let them mostly wear what they have and what they feel looks best on them. Once you build a portfolio and a reputation, then you can start worrying about the rest of it.

 

[Designer]

Clothes.

Good Lord!

..what, if any, is the minimum equipment I need in order to prevent a model from thinking "This person clearly has no idea what they're doing?"

It isn't your equipment that will tip them off.

You can either do this the cheap way or the right way. I suggest you try it the right way first, then see if there is any particular area in which to realize cost savings.

Hire an experienced model and learn from her. She already knows what to wear, how to style her hair, how to pose, and how to tell if you're a newbie. By all means; tell her up front that you're just learning.

Alternatively, hook up with a professional photographer who is willing to take you out on a shoot and show you the ropes. You might have to pay for this, but you'll be money ahead in the long run.

 

[tirediron]

You're new to this. You're learning. Accept it! Everyone had to start at the beginning; and you will gain experience as you go. Don't worry about not looking professional. TELL people that you're learning, you'd be surprised as to how much help you will receive, unlike presenting yourself as a professional and not being able to carry it off. Just tell potential models exactly how things are. If you're really worried about changing clothing (I wouldn't - get the important stuff like posing and lighting sorted first) then you can buy a 'change tent' for <$75.

You are the photographer, NOT the MUA or stylist. You don't do make-up, you don't style, etc. Yes, you need to have a basic understanding of those things, and in particular of certain types of make-up (foundation esp.) which do and do not photograph well, but that's not your area. YOU. TAKE. PHOTOS. At your level, the talent shows up how they show up; don't worry about styling. Worry about poses and lighting.

The minimum equipment is a camera and a lens. Really. That's all you need. Until you master that, there's no sense adding extra complications to the equation. More/better equipment will not help you if you don't know how to use it properly. I could give you $10,000 worth of lighting gear and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't help you one iota. That said, you will get there. Just be patient.

 

[ElNico]

You need to focus on your own equipment. You have a basic camera? No tripod? Which lenses? Any lighting? Any reflectors or modifiers?

I asked what I need to not look incompetent. You seem to be implying that there is such a threshold, but not really answering the question. What constitutes the basics for those things?

Have you read any books on the subject?

No as I'm just getting into the idea (all this stuff I'm asking is feeling it out). You suggested Picture Perfect Posing earlier, and I'm thinking I'll get my hands on that soon and have read at least part of it by the time I graduate from shooting helpful friends to working with aspiring models.

If you just have a concept in mind, you can ask if she has anything that would work. If she has nothing appropriate, and you're completely determined to do that concept shoot, then you could purchase one outfit specifically for that model in that shoot, in which case you would ask her size.

Sounds good.

But for a photographer without any experience or testimonials to ask young girls to meet him in deserted areas and then change all the way down to their underwear...that's definitely something that will send most girls running.

To be clear, what I was asking when I mentioned deserted areas was, if you're shooting in such an area already (because that's a thing; I've seen albums set in big empty warehouses and such and see the appeal of it), does that mean she can just step away from me to change because there's nobody else around anyway? Reading between the lines of what you said, I'm guessing that I just shouldn't be using those kinds of locations to begin with until I have more experience/testimonials, regardless of how private a changing area the location has.

For now, sacrifice your concept to ensure the girl's feeling of safety. Better yet, have her bring a friend along.

Sure.

However, if were a model, I would be wondering why you have money to buy me clothes and pay someone else to do my make-up and hair, but have no money to pay me. Just saying.

I don't have money to hire someone to do hair and makeup, that's why I asked. Same goes for "renting a studio." As for clothes, note I referred to it as an investment. If I'm paying the model that's a cost per shoot, but clothes can be reused. Also, it was suggested to me that if I'm paying the model it's probably going to cost me around $100 on the cheaper end, and I think I can put an outfit together for less than that if I'm smart about it. (Although possibly not if I don't want to have to wait for very long shipping times.)

For now, focus on technique and your own equipment. Guide the models into your idea, but let them mostly wear what they have and what they feel looks best on them. Once you build a portfolio and a reputation, then you can start worrying about the rest of it.

Cool.

Clothes.

Good Lord!

What about it?

..what, if any, is the minimum equipment I need in order to prevent a model from thinking "This person clearly has no idea what they're doing?"

It isn't your equipment that will tip them off.

What is, then?
Also, you appear to be disagreeing with cherylynne1 above on this point.

Hire an experienced model and learn from her. She already knows what to wear, how to style her hair, how to pose, and how to tell if you're a newbie. By all means; tell her up front that you're just learning.

Sounds good. How much do you think hiring an "experienced model" would cost?

Alternatively, hook up with a professional photographer who is willing to take you out on a shoot and show you the ropes. You might have to pay for this, but you'll be money ahead in the long run.

That sounds more difficult to arrange than the above, but I'll keep it in mind.

You're new to this. You're learning. Accept it! Everyone had to start at the beginning; and you will gain experience as you go. Don't worry about not looking professional. TELL people that you're learning, you'd be surprised as to how much help you will receive, unlike presenting yourself as a professional and not being able to carry it off. Just tell potential models exactly how things are.

Cool, nice to hear.

If you're really worried about changing clothing (I wouldn't - get the important stuff like posing and lighting sorted first) then you can buy a 'change tent' for <$75.

Sweet!

The minimum equipment is a camera and a lens. Really. That's all you need. Until you master that, there's no sense adding extra complications to the equation.

Good to know; though, again, you seem to be going against what cherylynne1 implied at the top of their post. Though I'm not sure just what they were trying to say there, so I could be wrong.

most models are probably fairly adept at doing their own make-up. Again, it's not something I would worry about until you have a highly stylized photo shoot where you need to control every aspect. If you were paying for it, it would probably be because you need that absolute control (i.e., she needs smoky eyeshadow with golden tones, winged eyeliner, and mauve lips, not "make her look good") so you would want to be there approving everything that the cosmetologist does and could pay her yourself. If you don't need that level of control, let the model do her own.

You are the photographer, NOT the MUA or stylist. You don't do make-up, you don't style, etc. Yes, you need to have a basic understanding of those things, and in particular of certain types of make-up (foundation esp.) which do and do not photograph well, but that's not your area. YOU. TAKE. PHOTOS. At your level, the talent shows up how they show up; don't worry about styling. Worry about poses and lighting.

Makes sense. That question was prompted by someone telling me I'd need to "provide hair and makeup," which didn't seem to make sense when I thought about it.



On bras. If what I said about "band size hacks" wouldn't work, that's fine. But as for cup sizes, I saw an article online a while back (I'd link it but I now can't remember how I came across it) which stated that the size of the cups, or more specifically the length of the underwire, is exactly the same if you go up one band size and down one cup size (or vice versa). So, if you took a 34D bra and a 36C bra from the same brand, and chopped off the straps and bands leaving just the cups, what you'd be left with would be identical. Is this not the case?

More generally, I've heard it said multiple times in girl-on-girl advice videos/articles that if you're changing band sizes to fit better, you shift and equal number of cup sizes in the opposite direction to compensate; so if you've been wearing a 36C and decided the band it too loose, you go to 34D, not 34C.

EDIT - Still can't find that article, but this describes the same concept. The article I read before went so far as to state that the cup volume is exactly the same between these "sister sizes," at least within the same brand. It had a chart listing not only sizes that have the same volume, but the actual volume and weight associated with each row.

 

[Designer]

O.K., I get that you're new, but what made you think that you were supposed to buy clothing (including undergarments!!) for a model you hardly know. You might not even know her size, let alone taste. Where did you get that idea?

Given all your other fumbling, do you think the average observer will see that you don't have the latest and greatest photographic gear and judge you to be a newbie? In my opinion, they will have formed their opinion of you long before you break out any gear.

 

[ElNico]

Because I don't know how these things are done (this is me finding out how these things are done), and because the alternative is asking her what kind of clothes she owns and I didn't know which approach was considered less weird. Between having a stock of clothes already, buying clothes for each shoot, and asking the model what she already has, the first seemed the least awkward but is also the most expensive, and I didn't know which of the other two was considered more normal. This is all assuming that I have a concept in mind for the shoot; which isn't always the case, but I wanted to know about when it is.

Given all your other fumbling, do you think the average observer will see that you don't have the latest and greatest photographic gear and judge you to be a newbie? In my opinion, they will have formed their opinion of you long before you break out any gear.

There's a difference between "new" - which is a stage everybody goes through - and "so unknowledgeable that this is a waste of my time and I should leave." I don't mind people knowing I'm a beginner, but I'm trying to find out what's necessary to avoid the latter reaction.

Hire an experienced model and learn from her. She already knows what to wear, how to style her hair, how to pose, and how to tell if you're a newbie. By all means; tell her up front that you're just learning.

Sounds good. How much do you think hiring an "experienced model" would cost?

 

[cherylynne1]

I was not trying to imply there was any such threshold. Often people forget to include vital information, so I was just checking in case you said, "Oh, yeah, I have DIY reflector that I've been using for practice and I bought the camera in a bundle that included a telezoom, I just never used it." Or that at least you would tell us what kind of camera and which kit lens (I assume) came with it. You can get by with just a camera. A prime lens and at least a basic reflector should be your next camera purchases, in my opinion.

As for bras. As a woman and a seamstress, trust me when I say that you are misunderstanding those charts. Sister sizes do not mean that two women who measure differently can wear the same size. It means that when a woman is professionally measured and that size doesn't fit perfectly, those are the sizes she should try next. It may be because of quirks in a certain brand, the shape or perkiness of the woman's breast, or even what time of month it is. It's saying that bras are so finicky and difficult to fit that one woman may wear many different sizes, not that two women can cram themselves into the same bra.

The thing you should take from that chart is that it answers your question of whether or not you can use pins to take down the band size. You can see that 32C and 34C are in different columns. That's because the cup for 32C will end up being smaller than 34C, so just pinning the band won't help, unless she was completely incorrect about her size in the first place.

I recently went bra shopping. I tried on 5 bras from 4 companies in my correct size. One fit. Then I tried on multiple sister sizes for the other bras. None of them fit correctly. Altogether I probably tried on 15-25 bras, and still, only one fit perfectly. A bra is the single worst piece of clothing you can ever buy for a woman. Avoid it at all costs.

 

[Jamesaz]

Fashion type photography was never my strong suite but I have some experience. 1st, don't be concerned with appearing incompetent: it's impossible to do photography, especially in studio, and not look incompetent. Just explain what your doing. Clothing can sometimes be rented or borrowed from boutiques in exchange for pictures. Do not remove tags. Also, spring type clothespins (P-38s) are helpful for making clothing fit better. As others have noted, discuss what you wish to achieve with your subject. I don't know your location but cosmetology schools may be a source for hair and makeup on the cheap. Have fun.

 

[Derrel]

YES...parks...public beaches...city sidewalks...public squares...all good for TFP shoots.

A camera and a lens or two or three and a reflector is enough gear.

An assistant with a reflector, and a duffle bag with at least a hand mirror, lint roller brush, hair brush, combs, tissues, and bottled water goes a long way toward making you look legit, more so than any camera gear.

 

[ElNico]

Or that at least you would tell us what kind of camera and which kit lens (I assume) came with it.

I have a Sony DSC-HX100V. What is a "kit lens?"

Clothing can sometimes be rented or borrowed from boutiques in exchange for pictures. Do not remove tags.

Can you explain what you mean by that? What exactly is a "boutique" in this context, and why would they want pictures?

YES...parks...public beaches...city sidewalks...public squares...all good for TFP shoots.

Okay, new question I just thought of. These are the kinds of places I'd thought of where one can go to do a photoshoot for free, and something they all have in common is that they're outside. This is why I asked about changing outfits, but it just occurred to me that being outdoors also makes them highly season-dependant, which I can't think of a way around other than not being outdoors. So, are there any places one can go to do a photoshoot that are indoors, other than a studio (which I assume costs a lot of money)?

An assistant with a reflector, and a duffle bag with at least a hand mirror, lint roller brush, hair brush, combs, tissues, and bottled water goes a long way toward making you look legit, more so than any camera gear.

I don't see that being easy to achieve, but I'll try to keep an eye out for ways to make it happen. Maybe if I make some friends in the community, I guess.



On bras:

Sister sizes do not mean that two women who measure differently can wear the same size.

I did not think that women who normally wear sister sizes could exchange bras. What I get from those articles is that women with sister sizes have the same size breasts on different sized frames. If a woman normally wears a 34C, a 32D bra will have the correct cup volume but the band will be too tight, whereas a 36B bra will have the correct cup volume but the band will be too loose. That is what those charts tell me. Is that not the case?

You can see that 32C and 34C are in different columns. That's because the cup for 32C will end up being smaller than 34C, so just pinning the band won't help, unless she was completely incorrect about her size in the first place.

I get that. I didn't think that a woman who is a 32C can wear a 34C and pin the band. What I thought is that she can wear a 34B and pin the band.

A bra is the single worst piece of clothing you can ever buy for a woman. Avoid it at all costs.

Okay, so - and to be clear I wouldn't have brought up this topic to begin with if it hadn't been adjacent to what I was already asking about clothing stock - what does that mean for lingerie photoshoots? Do they just rely on what the model already owns?

Or, are non-advertising lingerie shoots just not really done, for this reason? While I've seen albums of underwear shoots that don't look like they're advertising a product, it occurs to me that I think I've seen fewer of those than just about any other type of shoot I can think of, including swimwear.

 

[cherylynne1]

Okay, I asked about the camera because you said in your first post that you had a DSLR, which is a camera that has a mirror and uses interchangeable lenses. Generally the lenses these cameras come with are referred to as "kit lenses."

The camera you have is a superzoom point and shoot. The lens can't be taken off, and it's more limited in the kinds of photos it can take. For instance, photos with a narrow depth of field or taken in low light will be more difficult to achieve than it would be with a DSLR. It's fine to learn with. I learned all the basics of photography on a point and shoot. If I were you, I would not run out and buy a new camera right away.

However, it means you're more of a beginner than I thought. Do you understand the absolute basics of photography? Not portrait photography, just photography? Are you able to use the manual and semi manual modes (P, A, S, M) on your camera, and do you know when are the correct situations in which to use each one? Do you understand the exposure triangle? Do you edit your photos after taking them?

I would not do any TFP shoots until you have these basics down. Take pictures of inanimate objects, practice lighting, read books, watch videos. It's fine to be a beginner who is trying to get used to posing and directing, and things like that. It's not okay to take up a model's time so you can leave your camera on auto mode the entire time because you don't know about photography. Nothing else that you're worried about has any relevance at all until you reach that stage.

 

[ElNico]

However, it means you're more of a beginner than I thought. Do you understand the absolute basics of photography? Not portrait photography, just photography? Are you able to use the manual and semi manual modes (P, A, S, M) on your camera, and do you know when are the correct situations in which to use each one?

Yes. I've taken two courses in that stuff. However, that was in highschool, so a refresher might well do me good. Any good resources you can point me to?

Do you understand the exposure triangle?

That I don't know, unless it's a name for something I know that I haven't heard used before. I know about the relationship between shutter speed and f-stop, does it have something to do with that?

Do you edit your photos after taking them?

Not really. What's a good software to use to start out? I assume you don't mean Photoshop.



I'm fine with doing more research before doing any actual shooting, especially shooting with actual models as opposed to friends. (And for the record I was NOT planning on leaving my camera on auto mode.) I wanted to go ahead and ask this stuff anyway though; partially to get things moving and find out what kinds of things I most need to learn about, and partially so that these questions would stop bouncing around in my head (I have that kind of brain lol).

 

[mwilson263]

Chiming in a bit late here... It sounds like your mind is working overtime trying to cover all scenarios (which I can't fault as my mind works the same). My suggestions, which are very general, would be to take a step back in your thought process and start slow with what you have.

I'd start with friends or family to start so you get comfortable just with shooting people, posing, and using your gear. You may not get the perfect poses that a knowledgeable model might give you, but it would allow you to fumble around in a perhaps more relaxed setting as you develop your own workflow and figure out what works and what doesn't.

Shoot in public places (i.e. parks or some urban settings) that have interesting backdrops so long as weather allows. If you know of any local churches, schools, or meeting areas that might let you use some space you can hit them up.

I wouldn't even worry about providing clothing or makeup - at least for now. You can make suggestions to your subjects - i.e. wear a solid bright color dress, or wear jeans and a collared button up shirt, depending on what theme you want to go for; but I wouldn't worry about a wardrobe inventory - that's something you can tackle later on and perhaps develop over time.

Again, very general suggestions. Overall, work with what you have, and don't sweat what you don't have - keep it simple, grow along the way, and have fun.

 

[ElNico]

Thanks, that's helpful.

I'd start with friends or family to start so you get comfortable just with shooting people, posing, and using your gear. You may not get the perfect poses that a knowledgeable model might give you, but it would allow you to fumble around in a perhaps more relaxed setting as you develop your own workflow and figure out what works and what doesn't.

Do you think that I should, for example, read books about posing (or photography in general) before going ahead with shooting with friends, given that I haven't read any so far? Or do you think I should just dive in with that, while simultaneously learning what I can through research?

If you know of any local churches, schools, or meeting areas that might let you use some space you can hit them up.

I don't know about schools and churches, but I guess I can try. And hopefully in the course of looking for and joining photography groups on Facebook and Meetup, I can find some venues that way. Apart from that, can you or anyone else think of any other indoor places where one could do a photoshoot? Basically what I'm afraid of is that by the time I've learned enough to start working with aspiring models, the weather will be too cold to shoot in anything with fewer than two layers or with any amount of exposed skin (skirts, short sleeves, etc), and I'll need to wait another four months or more before being able to do some of the things I want to do. Maybe that won't happen - maybe it won't take me that long to reach that point, and maybe enough models will be willing to bite the bullet and shoot outside in the cold - but it would be nice to not have to worry about it.