Nature Lovers, Sign the Petition

[limr]

And this dentist killing this lion also becomes symbolic of a wider problem - not just poaching and animal cruelty, but also the exploitation of poor, corrupt nations by rich Americans who don't care about the mess they leave behind.

Umm... ok, well I guess were in the agree to disagree column here. Zimbabwe was a train wreck long before this guy came along and paid 60 grand for a big game hunt, and the problems there are much deeper than a few well to do American's participating in this sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I get where your coming from, but the conditions in Zimbabwe that make this sort of thing possible have very little to nothing to do with America.

I didn't mean to suggest that corruption was caused by rich Americans coming to hunt, only to say that the rich Westerners (it's mostly Americans but not exclusively) are more than happy to exploit the situation for their own gain. As for how it became the sh1tstorm of corruption that it is now? Well, yes, it's a complicated story. And though they are just part of the story, I don't think the European powers that colonized the area come out smelling all fresh and clean.

Again I don't disagree, sadly though knowing what things are like over there I doubt any of this will change much of anything, focused activism or not. The government of Zimbabwe is nothing more than a collection of thugs and gangsters of the highest order, and while they might be more than willing to put on a dog and pony show for PR purposes the truth is they could care less.

Yes, and faced with the prospect of "do something to help this specific situation" vs "do something to end corruption in Zimbabwe," what do you think most people will choose? The same with "do something about this person who suffered" vs "end the sex slave trade," we are again going to latch onto something concrete and manageable, hoping that a small change can lead to bigger changes. The attention on these small changes might help inspire others to make their own small changes, which leads to more small changes, which eventually add up to bigger changes. The idea that we just accept that, for example, Zimbabwe is corrupt and we can't do anything about it is exactly the kind of exhaustion I'm talking about. The problem is so big and so out of my control, it's just not worth it to even try. Perhaps, though, these little things that don't seem like such a big deal to those who don't care about the lion (again, just using this as an example) really are those small little changes that need to be fought for to combat the larger problem.

 

[table1349]

I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. They advertised themselves as professionals.

Which means nothing. Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!

It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.

He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting? I can see only two options: (1) He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.

I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.

I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible. It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home. I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...

I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. They advertised themselves as professionals.

Which means nothing. Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!

It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.

He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting? I can see only two options: (1) He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.

I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.

I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible. It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home. I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...

OH NO YOU DIDN'T just bring up Facebook and professional photographers again did you???? Here we go again.

Oh yes he did!!! lol. Good one too. I've got nothing for that. Touche'

Dear Dope Slap Academy,

It seems as if we are going to have a busy day tomorrow. Aside from the scheduled Dope Slaps we have an emergency Mega Dope Slap coming your way. Be prepared.

P.S. He's Canadian, use the Maple Dope Slap Paddle.​

 

[Buckster]

Back to the OP, I'm a bit confused by the petition.

It says: "Please sign the petition to demand justice for Cecil! Tell Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permits to kill endangered animals!"

How is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permit bringing justice to Cecil?

Wasn't Cecil killed without a valid permit to begin with?

It also says in the title "WE CAN END POACHING FOR GOOD."

And how is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing permit, which in this case it didn't, will help to stop poaching, which is, by definition, hunting illegally, so without a permit?

This make no sense to me at all, somebody explain?

My take on it is that the group's focus is the killing of endangered animals, Cecil just being the martyr for the cause. Or, as I said earlier (for which I'm already due for a dope slap!) the CATalyst.

Despite these particular circumstances, if the Zimbabwe government were to stop issuing permits to hunt endangered animals (assuming that it does that, at least for the point here), one can then assume that at least SOME endangered animals are being killed legally by that means, and the group would like to see that stop.

Obviously, that doesn't stop the problem entirely. Poachers will continue to violate the law as always, but any reduction at all would be a victory for that group, and for the animals they are trying to protect.

I can see how the petition makes sense to the group promoting it.

I'm sure it does make sense to them, otherwise they would not have written it. All I can see is that their trying to reel in this particular lion killing to promote their cause, but it's done in a so convoluted way that I don't know what their cause is, heck I'm not even sure what I'd be signing for; what I'm sure of is that the vast majority of those who signed didn't know either.

I can only tell you my own experience with reading it, and it seemed pretty simple to me.

It's not unusual or unprecedented for someone or, in this case, something to become a martyr for a cause without intending it, especially by being killed. We name streets after some of them. Put up giant monuments to others. Fail to recall most.

Not really very surprising or out of the ordinary from my pov, tbh.

 

[robbins.photo]

I didn't mean to suggest that corruption was caused by rich Americans coming to hunt, only to say that the rich Westerners (it's mostly Americans but not exclusively) are more than happy to exploit the situation for their own gain. As for how it became the sh1tstorm of corruption that it is now? Well, yes, it's a complicated story. And though they are just part of the story, I don't think the European powers that colonized the area come out smelling all fresh and clean.

True enough, I guess it's a tough one for me because of first hand experience. The worst part was the foreign aid workers , they'd show up so chock full of idealism thinking they were going to be the saviors of the poor, underprivileged locals. They would all have that same look in their eyes. Then a few months later you'd see them again and they'd be completely defeated, because they'd come to the realization that they were trying to hold back a tsunami of manure with a teaspoon.

So yes, I'd love to think that all the outrage here would amount to something and maybe just maybe things might change even slightly for the better. Sadly though having been there I'm afraid my cynicism simply runs too deep when it comes to Africa.

 

[JacaRanda]

I wanna see more outrage over this:

Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California

when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.

Start your facebook petition.

 

[Derrel]

So sad that this thread has been is now about legal technicalities. Once the African mammals are extinct (rhinos and tigers will go first) will we allow trophy hunters to kill animals in the zoo while in their cages. Or do we then go after songbirds, domestic animals, and finally the hunger games? Trophy hunters have an innate and powerful desire to dominate. This accomplished through murder, skinning, and beheading - while posing standing up (like tea-bagging) over the inferior victim. Do you really think these people are different from child molesters? It's exactly the same profile, same behaviours, same desires. Except one is repressed because it is illegal, not to mention animals can't talk back.

You are seriously overreaching, and falling into fanatical ravings. Your lack of logic here is sad.. We get it, you do not like hunting, but your facile smear campaign wore thin about six pages back. This last attempt at broad-brush slander means it's time for you to take a break and get away from the keyboard...

 

[Derrel]

Sorry, but you're slandering the reputation of an entire CLASS of people...that differs from libel which is deliberately impugning the reputation of a single person...maybe you're unfamiliar with American English usage of the word slander...your badmouthing is slanderous, because it is directed at entire types/classes/groups of people.

Yes..I studied journalism and am aware of libel's definition, as well as slander's definition, but in common use, you are slandering entire CLASSES of people: as in, you claim hunters and pedophiles are "the same thing".

I see that you're game to talk sH*+ about other people, but the SECOND your intentions or state of mind are questioned, you run screaming to the moderators!

You can DISH, but sure as heck cannot take!!

 

[limr]

a) Wolf is right about the terms - slander is spoken, libel is written.

b) Can you both please take your penises off the table?

c) Please take that picture down. It's against the rules unless you took it, and it's gratuitous.

d) Insults and extremist positions don't help anyone.

 

[Derrel]

Your use of the penis reference is ridiculous. Can you kindly remove your vagina from the table, Leonore?

Step off.

 

[pixmedic]

steady on there folks...
I removed the photo, as it was unnecessarily over the top.
If there are any penises or vaginas left on the table, I would kindly ask that you put them away, or at least bring them to the subscribers section if any are so inclined to continue waving them about.

 

[pixmedic]

sad to see the old timers on this forum are gone and have been replaced by an aggressive group-thinking mob.
feel free to delete my account.

so, look...
i dont mean to split hairs or anything....
but judging from the amount of signatures on the petition you linked, and the hateful and violent comments many of those people have left, I would venture to say that the petitioning group itself is an aggressive group-thinking mob.
And before you tell me its not a mob mentality at work there, I would point out that there are thousands of those people quite literally calling for blood... before a proper investigation has even been done, and real facts ascertained.

 

[Derrel]

sad to see the old timers on this forum are gone and have been replaced by an aggressive group-thinking mob.
feel free to delete my account.

This site typically does not delete accounts. Posters are however, free to stop posting, and by doing so, their posts and actions will slowly disappear from easy view.

 

[robbins.photo]

Wow... take the afternoon off to go shoot some pictures, come back and there is genitalia everywhere.

 

[EIngerson]

Well this thread turned south quick.

 

[Braineack]

I wanna see more outrage over this:

Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California

when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.

Start yout facebook petition.

Nah I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.

using tapatalk.