Nikon/Canon Kit Lenses Question

bp4life71 · Sep 8, 2009

Gentlemen,

Once again, I have questions.....amateur questions at that!

Will I be able to produce the In-Focus/Background blurred effect with the kit lenses of either the Canon XS/XSI or the Nikon D60?

I'm asking about both kits because i STILL have not decided which camera to get this weekend. Feel free to persuade me on one or the other though. But PLEASE answer my actual question first.....subject focused/background not...yes or no?

Thanks guys...great forums here.

bigtwinky · Sep 8, 2009

Yes you will. The level of "un-focusedness" will not be as great as with a better lens though.

Head to flickr ( www.flickr.com ) and in the search window, type 18-55 DOF. You'll get some hits that show you pictures with those tags, which should give you an idea of what you can do.

And read up on depth of field, and the different variables that control how blurry the background is. For little depth of field (ie - as blurry as possible):
- long focal lenght on your lens
- widest aperture
- lots of distance between background and subject

bigtwinky · Sep 8, 2009

bp4life71 said:
Gentlemen,

There are some amazing women here who are very accomplished photographers... I wouldn`t diss them in your opening statement :mrgreen:

(I know it wasn`t intentional, I`m just saying...)

Dao · Sep 8, 2009

It depends on the situation.

Both kit lenses from Canon, Nikon or any other camera companies behave about the same. Yes, the kit lens can do that.

For example, take a photo of a watch that is 12 inches away from the camera. The background is about 50 feet from the watch and the aperture is set to max of the focal length (i.e. F/5.6 at 55mm) you choose.
In this situation, you should have a blur background. (Dof is about 0.02ft)

However, if you are planning to take a photo of a person standing 10 feet away from the camera, it maybe a little tough to achieve this effect with any kit lens.

So, if you are planning to use the camera to take some portrait type shots of a person in the way that subject is in focus and background is out of focus AND at the same time, you want to save some money, I will recommend you go with the Canon and get a 50mm F/1.8 lens.

If you choose the D60, most likely you need to get the AF-S lens which cost more. Personally if I have to choose Nikon, I would rather have a D90 with 50mm F/1.8D AF than D60 with 50mm F/1.4G AF-S.

If you want to keep the cost down in the beginning and able to do what you described, Canon seems to be a better choice (D60 vs XS/XSi). (Not with the kit lens though!)

bigtwinky · Sep 8, 2009

I totally agree, look into that 50mm f/1.8 lens. It was the first lens I purchased and I love it. Cost me $80 too

epp_b · Sep 8, 2009

As it's a slow lens, it depends largely on how close you're focused.

For example:

That will have been focused about as closely as this lens can go, and it was stopped down to f/11 yet.

inTempus · Sep 8, 2009

bigtwinky said:
I totally agree, look into that 50mm f/1.8 lens. It was the first lens I purchased and I love it. Cost me $80 too

To achieve and out of focus background you don't need a super wide aperture. This is a pic I shot goofing around last weekend.

Settings:
Tv: 1/125
Av: f/5
ISO: 100

As you can see, the out of focus area is still too much, I could have bumped it down to f/6.3 and it probably would have been about right with the subject in focus and everything else out of focus.

So, the kit lenses for both Nikon and Canon can achieve this creamy background without having to invest in a f/1.8 lens. It's just a matter of knowing what causes the effect.

The key elements are:

1) aperture size
2) distance of subject from lens
3) distance of subject from background

Jerry has posted better examples of this in the past where he's used surprisingly small aperture settings and achieved a nice creamy background.

inTempus · Sep 8, 2009

Dao said:
So, if you are planning to use the camera to take some portrait type shots of a person in the way that subject is in focus and background is out of focus AND at the same time, you want to save some money, I will recommend you go with the Canon and get a 50mm F/1.8 lens.

At 50mm and f/1.8 you will have to be pretty careful how you pose the subject. If they aren't square with the camera you'll get one eye in focus, the other out of focus along with half of the face if they're at even the slightest angle. That, or to avoid this issue you'll have to stand back pretty far from the subject and they'll probably appear to small in the frame for a proper portrait.

In essence, there's no need to shoot at f/1.8 to get this effect in portraits. You can easily do it at f/2.8 or even f/4 with the proper lens and technique and not blur part of the subject.

Here's an example, again from last weekend. This was shot at f/3.2:

The subject is perfectly in focus while the background immediately after and before the subject is out of focus.

Dao · Sep 8, 2009

inTempus said:
Dao said:

So, if you are planning to use the camera to take some portrait type shots of a person in the way that subject is in focus and background is out of focus AND at the same time, you want to save some money, I will recommend you go with the Canon and get a 50mm F/1.8 lens.

Click to expand...

At 50mm and f/1.8 you will have to be pretty careful how you pose the subject. If they aren't square with the camera you'll get one eye in focus, the other out of focus along with half of the face if they're at even the slightest angle. That, or to avoid this issue you'll have to stand back pretty far from the subject and they'll probably appear to small in the frame for a proper portrait.

In essence, there's no need to shoot at f/1.8 to get this effect in portraits. You can easily do it at f/2.8 or even f/4 with the proper lens and technique and not blur part of the subject.

Agree 100%. I shoot this Robin at F/8 even.

Since OP was trying to decide which camera to get and it seems to me (based on this thread and the other one) that cost is one of the main factor. And I was guessing that he/she was planning to shoot portrait type shots (I could be wrong, so I gave a watch photo as an example). So just want to let him/her know about what lens others people usually want/get next after buying the camera with the kit lens for portrait type shots. A fast 50mm lens.

By the way, I am just wondering in your photo why the one who is wearing the helmet is the car, not the driver??? :lol:

inTempus · Sep 8, 2009

Dao said:
By the way, I am just wondering in your photo why the one who is wearing the helmet is the car, not the driver???

I'm guessing he's like me with my camera gear... I protect my 1D more than I protect myself. I shielded it from huge chunks of rocks and dirt with my body as the dragsters passed within 15ft of me. I was literally standing on the guardrail shooting.

Seriously though, he had just finished his run and was coming down the return road when I shot that pic. It was kind of hot and sunny that day so I assume he took his helmet off to catch a nice cool breeze.

bp4life71 · Sep 8, 2009

The other poster was correct. Money is a factor as this is simply a hobby for me. I can't go pretending i'm a professional now! Heck, I just figured out how f stops, iso, aperature relate to each other. Self-taught this week! Woo hoo. I'm a quick study though, and wither the d60 or the xs/xsi will be my camera this weekend. I must say I am leaning slightly to the Nikon....but am slightly down on the 3 points of focus (even though I dont really know if this will be a factor in practicality for what I'll be shooting). The Canon's speed at which it can take shots, with its extra focus points may be a better fit for me.

Lenses seem a wash, both competitively priced, and 3rd market lenses seem to be readily available for either.

Still not sure....i do like the looks of the Nikon better...but I'm a performance guy....looks take a back seat to performance.

inTempus · Sep 8, 2009

bp4life71 said:
The Canon's speed at which it can take shots, with its extra focus points may be a better fit for me.

I can tell you, there is nothing more frustrating than trying to shoot something like sports only to have your camera stop taking pictures for several seconds because the buffer is full. It will make you want to toss your camera across the field.

Derrel · Sep 8, 2009

I've been considering buying an inexpensive "carry body" to replace my aged Nikon D70 and my aged Canon 20D--those are the two cameras I actually carry and use when I want to take a camera along on risky trips, like saltwater salmon fishing, or on day trips to the zoo, where I want to have some "snaps", but not have to pack a big, heavy 3.8 pound pro Nikon body + lens, or a gripped Canon 5D and 24-105L, for days when I will be carrying a kit lens, or a 50mm prime, or 85mm prime, or a small,light wide-to-tele zoom like a 24-85 AF-S Nikon or my 18-125 Sigma for Canon APS-C.

So, I did a quick bit of research on the D60 and the XSi at Imaging Resource's web site. I found out the XSi's extra speed is largely only on paper.

The D60 raw buffer is stated as 6 images, or 100 Large Fine JPEG images at 3 fps, then it continues shooting at 50% reduced speed

The XSi raw buffer is stated as 6 images, or 45 JPEG images at 3.5 fps.

Please note that the XSi's ACTUAL,tested,real world RAW shooting allows it to shoot 5 frames in RAW, then it pauses to flush its buffer and to write to the memory card, whereas the D60's ACTUAL,tested, real-world RAW behavior is to shoot 7 raw files, and then write to the memory card.

Go to Imaging resource.com web site and look at the actual,tested specifications of the XSi and the D60. In Continuous shooting mode shooting Large Fine JPEGs, the XSi shoots one frame every 0.29 seconds. Shooting a 13 frame burst, it took 5 seconds to clear those shots to the memory card. The Nikon D60 on the other hand was slightly slower, at 0.33 seconds per frame for an over 20 frame burst, and it took 3 seconds to clear the shots to the memory card. Canon 13 frames, 5 seconds flush; Nikon 20, 3 seconds.

The cameras are very comparable,and the actual, real world difference in shooting speed per frame is four one-hundredths of a second slower for the Nikon, unless you need to shoot rather long,extended sequenes, where the Nikon's 100-frame JPEG buffer is just over twice as deep as the Canon's 45-shot JPEG buffer.

Note that the autofocus tests were done with a 70mm f/2.8 Sigma Macro lens on the XSi, a very fast-focusing, prime lens with the AF system optimized for a single focusing length, ie 70mm, while the D60 was tested with the "doggy"18-55 f/3.5~5.6 kit lens that it comes with. And yet, in continuous autofocusing mode, the Nikon's timing is 0.145 seconds per frame, while the XSi's timing is a slower 0.192 seconds per frame.

For indoor shooting, full AF with flash enabled, the Nikon again beat the Canon, taking 0.32 second to focus and make an expsoure, while the XSi took 0.328 seconds. In manual focus, with the AF shut off, the Nikon took -.095 seconds to make an exposure, the XSi took 0.115 seconds. The only time where the D60 took longer to focus and shoot was when the doggy 18-55 kit lens was used, taking 0.26 seconds from pressing the shutter button in Single-servo mode, where the Canon XSi took 0.160 seconds with the Sigma 70mm f/2.8 lens. From a "cold start" the $500 70mm prime 2.8 lens managed to beat the "free" f/3.5~5.6 kit lens. Surprising? Hardly.

And yet, in actual tests of things like Continuous AF, manual focus shooting speed, and full AF with flash indoors, the D60 still managed to beat the XSi in terms of pressing the button, achieving focus, and making an exposure, beating the XSi,either comfortably, or marginally. I think it's a little deceptive to test an XSi with a fast-focusing f/2.8 70mm telephoto macro prime lens versus a Nikon D60 with an 18-55 f/3.5~5.6 lens; the Nikon system is being handicapped with a rather cheap, slow zoom lens with lower magnification, which leads to much more difficult in-focus, out-of-focus discernment for the Phase Detection AF system. The Sigma 70mm 2.8 tested with the Canon XSi retails at $499, while the XSi is selling for $639 today at B&H, making the 70mm macro a very unlikely actual "buy" for the typical XSi user. The D60 with 18-55 is selling for $599 today at B&H.

I would love to see both the XSi and D60 tested on perfectly equal lens footing, like both driving their own maker's 200mm f/2 stabilized supertelephotos...at least, that would be like against like...

bp4life71 · Sep 8, 2009

Derrel said:
I've been considering buying an inexpensive "carry body" to replace my aged Nikon D70 and my aged Canon 20D--those are the two cameras I actually carry and use when I want to take a camera along on risky trips, like saltwater salmon fishing, or on day trips to the zoo, where I want to have some "snaps", but not have to pack a big, heavy 3.8 pound pro Nikon body + lens, or a gripped Canon 5D and 24-105L, for days when I will be carrying a kit lens, or a 50mm prime, or 85mm prime, or a small,light wide-to-tele zoom like a 24-85 AF-S Nikon or my 18-125 Sigma for Canon APS-C.

So, I did a quick bit of research on the D60 and the XSi at Imaging Resource's web site. I found out the XSi's extra speed is largely only on paper.

The D60 raw buffer is stated as 6 images, or 100 Large Fine JPEG images at 3 fps, then it continues shooting at 50% reduced speed

The XSi raw buffer is stated as 6 images, or 45 JPEG images at 3.5 fps.

Please note that the XSi's ACTUAL,tested,real world RAW shooting allows it to shoot 5 frames in RAW, then it pauses to flush its buffer and to write to the memory card, whereas the D60's ACTUAL,tested, real-world RAW behavior is to shoot 7 raw files, and then write to the memory card.

Go to Imaging resource.com web site and look at the actual,tested specifications of the XSi and the D60. In Continuous shooting mode shooting Large Fine JPEGs, the XSi shoots one frame every 0.29 seconds. Shooting a 13 frame burst, it took 5 seconds to clear those shots to the memory card. The Nikon D60 on the other hand was slightly slower, at 0.33 seconds per frame for an over 20 frame burst, and it took 3 seconds to clear the shots to the memory card. Canon 13 frames, 5 seconds flush; Nikon 20, 3 seconds.

The cameras are very comparable,and the actual, real world difference in shooting speed per frame is four one-hundredths of a second slower for the Nikon, unless you need to shoot rather long,extended sequenes, where the Nikon's 100-frame JPEG buffer is just over twice as deep as the Canon's 45-shot JPEG buffer.

Note that the autofocus tests were done with a 70mm f/2.8 Sigma Macro lens on the XSi, a very fast-focusing, prime lens with the AF system optimized for a single focusing length, ie 70mm, while the D60 was tested with the "doggy"18-55 f/3.5~5.6 kit lens that it comes with. And yet, in continuous autofocusing mode, the Nikon's timing is 0.145 seconds per frame, while the XSi's timing is a slower 0.192 seconds per frame.

For indoor shooting, full AF with flash enabled, the Nikon again beat the Canon, taking 0.32 second to focus and make an expsoure, while the XSi took 0.328 seconds. In manual focus, with the AF shut off, the Nikon took -.095 seconds to make an exposure, the XSi took 0.115 seconds. The only time where the D60 took longer to focus and shoot was when the doggy 18-55 kit lens was used, taking 0.26 seconds from pressing the shutter button in Single-servo mode, where the Canon XSi took 0.160 seconds with the Sigma 70mm f/2.8 lens. From a "cold start" the $500 70mm prime 2.8 lens managed to beat the "free" f/3.5~5.6 kit lens. Surprising? Hardly.

And yet, in actual tests of things like Continuous AF, manual focus shooting speed, and full AF with flash indoors, the D60 still managed to beat the XSi in terms of pressing the button, achieving focus, and making an exposure, beating the XSi,either comfortably, or marginally. I think it's a little deceptive to test an XSi with a fast-focusing f/2.8 70mm telephoto macro prime lens versus a Nikon D60 with an 18-55 f/3.5~5.6 lens; the Nikon system is being handicapped with a rather cheap, slow zoom lens with lower magnification, which leads to much more difficult in-focus, out-of-focus discernment for the Phase Detection AF system. The Sigma 70mm 2.8 tested with the Canon XSi retails at $499, while the XSi is selling for $639 today at B&H, making the 70mm macro a very unlikely actual "buy" for the typical XSi user. The D60 with 18-55 is selling for $599 today at B&H.

I would love to see both the XSi and D60 tested on perfectly equal lens footing, like both driving their own maker's 200mm f/2 stabilized supertelephotos...at least, that would be like against like...

Thank you for replying....the portion you typed:

"The cameras are very comparable,and the actual, real world difference in shooting speed per frame is four one-hundredths of a second slower for the Nikon, unless you need to shoot rather long,extended sequenes, where the Nikon's 100-frame JPEG buffer is just over twice as deep as the Canon's 45-shot JPEG buffer."

Could be what puts me over the top for Nikon. The 100 photos is very important to me. I'll be taking shots of moving boats during training...and this does seem like something that MAY come in handy.

Hmmmm.......Still a few more days till I must decide.

But man, those Nikon lenses are expensive......I havent checked Canon's lenses as thoroughly...but I can only assume that they would be cheaper with the motors in the body on the xs/xsi.