Photographers Permit?

table1349 · Nov 28, 2008

skieur said:
You just don't get it. Taking photos is NEVER illegal and if you pay a fine, you are dumb.

skieur

nev·er (n

v

r)adv.1. Not ever; on no occasion; at no time: He had never been there before. You never can be sure.
2. Not at all; in no way; absolutely not: Never fear. That will never do.

Idiom: never mind1. Don't bother: I was hoping for some help, but never mind, I'll do it alone.
2. Not to mention; and certainly not: I can't tread water, never mind swim.

never Adverb
1. at no time; not ever
2. certainly not; not at all
3. Also: (well I never!) surely not! [Old English nǣfre] USAGE: In informal speech and writing, never can be used instead of not with the simple past tenses of certain verbs, for emphasis (I never said that; I never realized how clever he was), but this usage should be avoided in serious writing.

It is blanket statements from pseudo-lawyers to the uninformed that get people into trouble. Local laws and regulations do apply and those are what matter.

That is why I love the National Geographic Channel program Locked Up Abroad. Stupid Americans whining about the way they are treated in another country with different laws, values and customs, after they get arrested for willfully breaking the law in that land.

Chiller · Nov 28, 2008

I got busted twice before for photographing at the cemetery by a rent a cop. Even tho he threatened to have me fined, I just told him how much he looked like Udo Dirkshnieder(some of you wont have a clue he is) and got him all off track. :lol:

:lmao:

Even tho is it not "illegal" to take photos there, permission is still required. Since my new son in laws brother works there, I was able to get hold of the "rules and regulations" How amazing is it that you can ride a bike, but not photograph. I included the whole shebangs, for the read, but check oot the photography part.

The pet part made me laugh too..."of any kind" I was going to bring a zebra one day. :lol:

1.2 Private Property:

All cemeteries are privately owned lands. Interment Rights Holders and public visitors enjoy the use of

the Cemetery at their own risk and shall be governed by the following:

•

Damage to Property: No one may damage, destroy, remove or deface any property in or belonging to the Cemetery;

•

Vehicles: Vehicles within the Cemetery shall be driven at a speed less than 30 km/hr. At no time shall such vehicles

park or drive on the grass. Owners of vehicles will be held liable for any damage caused by their drivers or vehicles;

•

Improper Conduct: In the sole opinion of the Cemetery, any person whose actions, conduct, behaviour, or attire

disturbs the decorum of the Cemetery, or who violates these By-laws may be required to leave the Cemetery grounds;

•

Dogs, Cats, Pets, etc.: Dogs, cats, pets, etc., of any form are not permitted in the Cemetery;

•

Special Events: Special Events are permitted with the prior approval of the Cemetery;

•

Soliciting: Canvassing, soliciting, advertising or distributing business cards in the Cemetery is prohibited, as is the

placing or displaying of any manufacturer’s, monument dealer’s, or quarry’s name, insignia or trademark in any form;

•

Photographing, Filming, or Video-Taping: Photographing, filming, or video-taping of any part of the Cemetery

may only take place with the prior approval of the Cemetery;

•

Roller Blades: The use of roller blades is strictly prohibited within the Cemetery grounds;

•

Bicycles: To ensure the safety of our employees and visitors to the Cemetery, bicycles must be operated in a safe

manner that respects the needs of families and only on cemetery roads at a speed less than 10 km/hour. Bicycle racing

is strictly prohibited

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

Let me try to be crystal clear. Taking photos is never illegal.

However other laws can be broken while taking pictures or through their use.

1. Trespassing
2. Loitering
3. Violating the Official Secrets Act
4. Defammation
5. Libel
6. Harassment
7. Intimidation
8. Assault
9. Violating someone's expectation of privacy
10. fraud
11. trademark infringement through use of a photo of a trademark to pass
off copies as being the original goods of the trademark owner

and yes, there are probably some others that I may have forgotten.

skieur

Chiller · Nov 28, 2008

skieur said:
Let me try to be crystal clear. Taking photos is never illegal.

However other laws can be broken while taking pictures or through their use.

1. Trespassing
2. Loitering
3. Violating the Official Secrets Act
4. Defammation
5. Libel
6. Harassment
7. Intimidation
8. Assault
9. Violating someone's expectation of privacy
10. fraud
11. trademark infringement through use of a photo of a trademark to pass
off copies as being the original goods of the trademark owner

and yes, there are probably some others that I may have forgotten.

skieur

I did three of those on the weekend :lmao: I wont go into details tho.

dylj · Nov 28, 2008

skieur said:
Let me try to be crystal clear. Taking photos is never illegal.

However other laws can be broken while taking pictures or through their use.

1. Trespassing
2. Loitering
3. Violating the Official Secrets Act
4. Defammation
5. Libel
6. Harassment
7. Intimidation
8. Assault
9. Violating someone's expectation of privacy
10. fraud
11. trademark infringement through use of a photo of a trademark to pass
off copies as being the original goods of the trademark owner

and yes, there are probably some others that I may have forgotten.

skieur

I think that logic is akin to "Shooting people is never illegal. But murder or assault can be illegal."

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

dylj said:
I think that logic is akin to "Shooting people is never illegal. But murder or assault can be illegal."

Oh, then you are saying that assault or trespassing and photography are the same as shooting people and murder. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

So, illogical, it is ridiculous!

skieur

JerryPH · Nov 28, 2008

This is starting to all border on the rediculous.

I think that what is being said... is that if a county has a bylaw that DEMANDS payment (and in return offers the right to photograph in an area), in the form of a permit, and you do not feel like paying becuase "photography should be free", well, if caught, they will slap a nice bigger fine on you becuase you broke a county law.

Dancing around semantics is not going to change it either. In this case, yeah, shooting is illegal becuase you are shooting on private or public property without permission or a permit that WOULD permit you to do so without issue.

The logic behind this is all very simple... a cash grab. If a professional company is making thousands of dollars off a shoot while using county land, the county wants a piece of the pie, and it does this by imposing a law where shooting is permitted, but only by permit and then adding fines for those that do not wish to follow the law.

It is unfortunate, but it appears that this law applies to everyone, big companies and single individuals too, irrespective of if that one individual who has a bunch of nice equipment, is shooting his wife and kids in that designated/protected area.

You have a choice... to pay for a permit or not. But if caught, your only choice is to pay the now higher fine or go sit in county lock-up until court later that day... and pay more for the fine and court costs.

No one forced you to take pictures in that spot, so if caught, be responsible for your actions and do the right thing, or better yet, pay beforehand... or if you do not want to pay... find another spot to shoot.

It's not like there is only one nice place to shoot in a whole area, is it?

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

Chiller said:
I got busted twice before for photographing at the cemetery by a rent a cop. Even tho he threatened to have me fined, I just told him how much he looked like Udo Dirkshnieder(some of you wont have a clue he is) and got him all off track.:lmao:
Even tho is it not "illegal" to take photos there, permission is still required. Since my new son in laws brother works there, I was able to get hold of the "rules and regulations" How amazing is it that you can ride a bike, but not photograph. I included the whole shebangs, for the read, but check oot the photography part.
The pet part made me laugh too..."of any kind" I was going to bring a zebra one day.

1.2 Private Property:

All cemeteries are privately owned lands. Interment Rights Holders and public visitors enjoy the use of

the Cemetery at their own risk and shall be governed by the following:

Damage to Property: No one may damage, destroy, remove or deface any property in or belonging to the Cemetery;

Vehicles: Vehicles within the Cemetery shall be driven at a speed less than 30 km/hr. At no time shall such vehicles

park or drive on the grass. Owners of vehicles will be held liable for any damage caused by their drivers or vehicles;

Improper Conduct: In the sole opinion of the Cemetery, any person whose actions, conduct, behaviour, or attire

disturbs the decorum of the Cemetery, or who violates these By-laws may be required to leave the Cemetery grounds;

Dogs, Cats, Pets, etc.: Dogs, cats, pets, etc., of any form are not permitted in the Cemetery;

Special Events: Special Events are permitted with the prior approval of the Cemetery;

Soliciting: Canvassing, soliciting, advertising or distributing business cards in the Cemetery is prohibited, as is the

placing or displaying of any manufacturers, monument dealers, or quarrys name, insignia or trademark in any form;

Photographing, Filming, or Video-Taping: Photographing, filming, or video-taping of any part of the Cemetery

may only take place with the prior approval of the Cemetery;

Roller Blades: The use of roller blades is strictly prohibited within the Cemetery grounds;

Bicycles: To ensure the safety of our employees and visitors to the Cemetery, bicycles must be operated in a safe

manner that respects the needs of families and only on cemetery roads at a speed less than 10 km/hour. Bicycle racing

is strictly prohibited

Despite all of the above, the only recourse they have is to ask you to leave and they may not even be able to do that if a member of your immediate family is buried there.

skieur

JerryPH · Nov 28, 2008

Well, I think that we all know that if an officer is called, and you insist on staying and become even the least belligerent, you will leave in the back seat of the cruiser in cuffs. They'll add resisting arrest, attempted assault on an officer, refusing to listen to the request of an officer, or some other stupidity... so why be foolish about it?

It's the wise man that will say "I am sorry, I'm on my way and shall leave now..." and if they were a gentleman would add "... but before I go, I'd like to show you my pictures and you may choose if I should delete any or all of them..."

That way, if you came back and Mr Rent-a-cop was there and saw you, they may not do anything... they may do the same, but at least I showed that I had a little class, maturity and that I respected him and his position. You will always catch more flies with honey.

I've been asked once already to leave an area, but after apologizing and asking if I could show them the pictures and offered them the choice to delete the pics... the guy actually apologized back and I was left to take more pictures. I am not saying it will always happen, but if one acts a jerk, expect to be treated as one.

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

You have NOT read the thread, Jerry, what requires a permit is bringing in a crew and major equipment. That is NOT what many photographers are doing.

It IS LEGAL to go in without a crew and major equipment and do a shoot and you cannot be legally fined. How can they fine you? You are not even required to identify yourself. Their only recourse is to ask you to leave, but even that could be construed as discrimination, because you have not violated any supposed rules.

skieur

Chiller · Nov 28, 2008

skieur said:
Despite all of the above, the only recourse they have is to ask you to leave and they may not even be able to do that if a member of your immediate family is buried there.

skieur

I have no problem leaving, and respect that they are doing their job. I was more surprised at the fact....there are no signs, that said photography was not permitted. Now that I know the rules, if I go back, and I am asked to leave, I just say...thats cool...have a great day, and leave.

There are lots of other places to shoot

JerryPH · Nov 28, 2008

skieur said:
You have NOT read the thread, Jerry, what requires a permit is bringing in a crew and major equipment. That is NOT what many photographers are doing.

It IS LEGAL to go in without a crew and major equipment and do a shoot and you cannot be legally fined. How can they fine you?

Realistically, the county would be able to tell you definitively or not. Discussing it here is just some pleasant discussion and nothing more definitive than an exchange of opinion.

If they are jerks looking for $$, you would be surprised what could be construed as a "crew". One lightstand and a wife holding it as you carry your camera and a couple lenses and your son following. Their land, their laws and interpretations of it (blatantly obvious or not).

It's not about law, its about the money and depending on how money hungry they are, they could cause even the casual strobist some issues.

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

JerryPH said:
Well, I think that we all know that if an officer is called, and you insist on staying and become even the least belligerent, you will leave in the back seat of the cruiser in cuffs. They'll add resisting arrest, attempted assault on an officer, refusing to listen to the request of an officer, or some other stupidity... so why be foolish about it?
.

Well, you would be stupid to stay on private property, since it would leave you open to a charge of trespassing. However you are free to leave with your photos and use them or sell them for any artistic or editorial purpose
If the police arrive before you leave, they will likely tell you to leave and escort you off the property. You would be foolish to resist.

skieur

skieur · Nov 28, 2008

JerryPH said:
Realistically, the county would be able to tell you definitively or not. Discussing it here is just some pleasant discussion and nothing more definitive than an exchange of opinion.

If they are jerks looking for $$, you would be surprised what could be construed as a "crew". One lightstand and a wife holding it as you carry your camera and a couple lenses and your son following. Their land, their laws and interpretations of it (blatantly obvious or not).

It's not about law, its about the money and depending on how money hungry they are, they could cause even the casual strobist some issues.

Laws and bilaws by municipalities, counties and cities are often beyond their rights to make them and violate the rights and freedoms of their constituents. The reason they continue to make them because so few have been tested in court by legally knowledgeable victims. This will continue until someone fights one of these laws in court and wins and then turns around and sues the city or municipality for a lot of money for violating their civil rights.

By the way, speaking from experience, instituting a law suit and doing it right is worth it. I would never hesitate in future.

skieur

JerryPH · Nov 28, 2008

Having lived in the USA, I would say it was the American way... lol
Here, it is (gladly enough) a lot harder to sue, even when you have all the legal points on your side. I know it is not related, but as a (bad) example, a surgeon left a needle in my grandmother... it infected and swelled her entire torso and she almost died from it. We went to 14 lawyers... none accepted the case becuase it is "bad form" to sue a doctor here in Canada. This was many years ago (about 20), and could have changed since.