Photographing family and many pets!!!

[tirediron]

I've been shooting for a very long time and still walk into some assignments with butterflies, it's just the way I am. I do know that I will come away with everything the client wants, but always work to give them more. I'm terrible at business, always have been, but I am good with a camera and have always showed up prepared and with all the right tools to do the job I'm getting paid for. I grew up learning photography, I shot pictures of my cats, sunsets, flowers to learn about light. I shot the licence plates of moving cars while sitting on the sidewalk to learn how to focus on subjects moving towards me. What has happened to photography is more and more people are walking into situations that they are not ready for, or equipped to deal with. So many camera owners use paid shoots as a way to gain experience, it's putting the cart before the horse. People should learn how to shoot, buy the right tools, shoot for free, learn about light, and depending on what field they go into, learn how to set up and use lights. There should not be a rush to do the job correctly, but these days, everyone is looking to short cut learning all the basics about photography. I have a camera, I can start a business and make money. This isn't directed as a personal attack, it is the reality of many.

Some of the most successful photographers are really mediocre with a camera, but very good at business and promoting themselves. Personally I'm happier being really good with a camera and mediocre at business. I'd like to be good at both, but it didn't work out that way.

It is impossible to over-state the accuracy or importance of this post! Read and heed!

 

[Shades of Blue]

Imagemaker46, that was a great post! Thanks for that!

You say you aren't good at business, but are great with photography. Sounds to me like you are at least pretty good at business because you made a good business decision to not jump in head first! But, at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be. There is no right way to start a business. You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures. As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways. I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy. It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!

 

[Braineack]

Hey all! This is my first post. I have just started my photography business and have a session on Saturday. This session involves four (human) family members and 5 dogs and 2 cats! I'm really at a loss of how I am going to accomplish getting some good shots! I don't have ANY experience with this kind of situation. So far I have done pretty simple family photos and newborn/kid sessions, senior pictures, that sort of thing. Does anyone have any advice or tips? I really could use some suggestions. Another problem I'm running into is (since i'm just starting out and using a tripod my dad bought years ago) the tripod I have only stands at about 5ft. No one looks good from a low angle so I'm a bit worried about trying to focus on that many faces while just holding my camera in hand. So suggestions on that would be appreciated as well. Thank's ya'll, Happy New Year!

lol. good luck.

 

[tirediron]

.... at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be. There is no right way to start a business. You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures. As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways. I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy. It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!

How would you feel if you brought your car to a mechanic and found out he'd just bought his tools that morning, and his only training was watching YouTube videos? I agree that everyone has to start somewhere, and no one is as good on day 1 as they are on day 1001, BUT... EVERYONE should have at least the basics down pat before they jump in, and if you're whole plan goes out the window because of a lack of ambient light, then, IMO, you haven't reached that threshold yet.

 

[Shades of Blue]

.... at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be. There is no right way to start a business. You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures. As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways. I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy. It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!

How would you feel if you brought your car to a mechanic and found out he'd just bought his tools that morning, and his only training was watching YouTube videos? I agree that everyone has to start somewhere, and no one is as good on day 1 as they are on day 1001, BUT... EVERYONE should have at least the basics down pat before they jump in, and if you're whole plan goes out the window because of a lack of ambient light, then, IMO, you haven't reached that threshold yet.

I can't disagree with that at all. But, I think that if that mechanic tells me that he is just getting started in the business and offers me a discounted rate to gain him some experience, that sort of falls in the risk that the client takes when they hire you. If you are open from the beginning that it may take you a week to fix the car because you are learning and are only going to charge $150 where the dealer charges $800, then the client has a decision to make. Now if the mechanic blatantly lies to me, that is an entirely different situation. If someone wants to pay a new photographer $50 to take their photos and explains that they are new to the business, I really, really don't see the issue with this.

I'm not discounting being ready to start a business, but you have to jump in sometime. It's easy to tell the newbies to spend 5 years learning their cameras and then go get a law degree before you charge your first client, but the only person that can decide if they are ready is the photographer. Chances are after a few shoots, they will realize there is a LOT to learn.

 

[Overread]

The point is you don't want to go into business learning the basics - you want to go in knowing them. That way you can deliver a competitive product at a healthy good price and earn a decent wage. Most new companies lose money in their opening period - unless you've a seriously good marketing campaign or you're providing a needed service in an area with little to no competition - and that is charging at a good rate. You dont want to be under charging (ergo losing money) whilst learning and providing a product and experience that might not reflect your overall best potential.

Every time you work for someone you're advertising yourself; you want that advert to be good.

This is why apprenticing is a good approach; you can work in the industry and make mistakes and learn without putting your name on the line; furthermore you've got someone experienced over your shoulder who can stop you before you do something wrong and show you how to do the right things. At the same time most apprenticeships will end up with you doing stuff on your own which seriously helps you build confidence so that when you turn up you know what you can and can't do and you're confident about that.



Getting started is hard and there's always pressure to earn; its a huge balancing act as to when to charge and when you have to learn and its important to remember that you will never stop learning. There will always be new things to learn or relearn. So no one is saying that you have to know it all; just that you need to know enough that you can turn up and deal not only with the situation but also most possible problems/issues that can arise.

And sometimes this will even include saying "No" to a client. Yes sometimes do you have to turn down work or say that something must be done another day or another way and for that you need confidence in yourself and your ability to be able to say that.

 

[heidiwags90]

I feel as if some of you are under the impression that I find myself to be the best photographer in the world with plenty of knowledge in photography and in business. Maybe you think of yourselves this way but that was never the intended outcome of my original post or any post thereafter. I am a college student who has started making a profit off of a few years of a passionate hobby. I understand there is so much for me still to learn and I love the journey I'm on to bettering myself as a photographer.

I guess(?) I apologize for using the word business, it is just a term I use to shorten the explanation that I am receiving payment for a service I provide. My clients know EXACTLY what they are getting before we set up a shoot and I find it offensive that some of you are so judgmental you would jump to conclusions about me when you have no idea who I am, the quality of my work or the scale of my integrity. All of my potential clients know I am just starting out, they know my equipment is basic in terms of lighting, and they are being charged accordingly, which I can assure you is an extremely low price. I visit a chiropractic office that lets upper level chiropractic students perform services for a ridiculously low price; this is the same idea I have used for my photography. So, please don't refer to me as an unexperienced mechanic ripping off my customers.

In regards to my "business" or "non-business" I'm not trying to have a fancy studio, I'm not trying to get hired for national geographic, I am just a college student, soon to be teacher, who has a passion for photography and is trying to make a little extra cash off of it. I'm not claiming to have some big, important, successful business, all I did was ask a question as a beginner, about photographing multiple pets and their humans. I would never get on a forum and put someone down the way some of you have done to me. Regardless of your intentions the majority of your responses were not even helpful in answering the question I asked, but just a way of making sure I know I "don't have a business" and making it clear you think I am unexperienced and not qualified.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion but for the record on the matter of my "business" I never asked for your opinion. I asked for tips on photographing a particular session in which some of you were unsuccessful in answering. I would never answer a post on a forum with the intent of putting someone down and maybe it wasn't intentional but that is exactly what you have done, so congratulations! Maybe I shouldn't be so defensive but there are much nicer ways you could have made your point.

To the classy people that had positive advice on the question at hand, thank you very much! I appreciate your kindness and your consideration!

 

[heidiwags90]

Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting.

@imagemaker46 sorry if you misunderstood me, I never "decided" I couldn't do the shoot. Had that been the case, I would not have come here looking for help, and I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I felt like I wasn't experienced enough or up for the task. I don't think the fact that I've never photographed a family of four and seven pets disqualifies me from being able to run a business, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I am at the stage where I've just created a website and am starting to get a local following. Maybe we have different ideas of what a "business" means, right now to me it means I've starting getting requests for photo shoots from friends and friends of friends and other people in my area. I'm charging a very very low price for what I have been told and consider myself to be high quality photos because yes, my business is new. I just wanted to make myself clear on all of that but I do appreciate your other suggestions.

I don't think I misunderstood what you said. After reading how your shoot went I am guessing that you did go into a situation without having any lights, "no natural lighting" Was I correct in assuming you used the single pop up flash on your camera? It's not about running a business, I know all kinds of camera owners that are running a business, it's how professional a person is when running that business. Most own a single camera with the kit lenses that came with it, got business cards, set up a facebook page or ventured into a free web site, watched a few videos, and then decided that was enough to start charging.
I consider the images I produce as high quality, it has become a blanket term in the photo world, it means very. What is being called an "excellent image" now, would have been considered "good" a few years ago, "great image" now, used to be "mediocre" and "good image" now, used to be garbage.

What it all comes down to is that your friends and friends of friends are happy with the quality of their photos, it really doesn't matter what some person on a forum says.

I understand what your saying and on most of it I agree! But, there will always be times to agree to disagree! Thanks for you consideration!

 

[tirediron]

I feel as if some of you are under the impression that I find myself to be the best photographer in the world with plenty of knowledge in photography and in business. Maybe you think of yourselves this way but that was never the intended outcome of my original post or any post thereafter. I am a college student who has started making a profit off of a few years of a passionate hobby. I understand there is so much for me still to learn and I love the journey I'm on to bettering myself as a photographer.

Don't apologize. Despite how some of the responses may have sounded, mine included, they were meant to be helpful. Just because you didn't ask about a particular subject doesn't mean that someone can't offer what they believe to be helpful, relevant advice. People have been where you are, and have made mistakes, and maybe, just maybe want to help others avoide those mistakes.

I guess(?) I apologize for using the word business, it is just a term I use to shorten the explanation that I am receiving payment for a service I provide. My clients know EXACTLY what they are getting before we set up a shoot and I find it offensive that some of you are so judgmental you would jump to conclusions about me when you have no idea who I am, the quality of my work or the scale of my integrity. All of my potential clients know I am just starting out, they know my equipment is basic in terms of lighting, and they are being charged accordingly, which I can assure you is an extremely low price. I visit a chiropractic office that lets upper level chiropractic students perform services for a ridiculously low price; this is the same idea I have used for my photography. So, please don't refer to me as an unexperienced mechanic ripping off my customers.

Something you need to be very clear on: As soon as money is exchanged for services, no matter how small the amount, the dynamic between provider and providee changes. Many... even most people will recognize that you are learning and accept that. I assume that so far, all of your clients have. At some point, someone will not. They will want "their money's worth" and that's when the problems can begin. Do you have a business license? Do you have liability insurance? Do you (if required) collect and remit appropriate sales tax(es)? Lack of any of those can turn into a hugely expensive legal issue very quickly.

In regards to my "business" or "non-business" I'm not trying to have a fancy studio, I'm not trying to get hired for national geographic, I am just a college student, soon to be teacher, who has a passion for photography and is trying to make a little extra cash off of it. I'm not claiming to have some big, important, successful business, all I did was ask a question as a beginner, about photographing multiple pets and their humans. I would never get on a forum and put someone down the way some of you have done to me. Regardless of your intentions the majority of your responses were not even helpful in answering the question I asked, but just a way of making sure I know I "don't have a business" and making it clear you think I am unexperienced and not qualified.

Photography, for better or worse, has no qualifications. You are as qualified as I, or anyone else here. You are NOT as experienced as some of us. Those are facts which are not debatable. What is debatable is your ability to provide a suitable product in exchange for payment. Based on your earlier posts, my opinion is that you probably need a little more experience.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion but for the record on the matter of my "business" I never asked for your opinion. I asked for tips on photographing a particular session in which some of you were unsuccessful in answering. I would never answer a post on a forum with the intent of putting someone down and maybe it wasn't intentional but that is exactly what you have done, so congratulations! Maybe I shouldn't be so defensive but there are much nicer ways you could have made your point.

To the classy people that had positive advice on the question at hand, thank you very much! I appreciate your kindness and your consideration!

I understand that my posts may have seemed harsh, but having gone down this particular road, I have learned a few things along the way. The most important of which is: DO NOT start taking money until you're ready. Even if you are only going to do one paid session a month, you NEED insurance and you need the appropriate license(s). Not having either of those could literally bankrupt you. You won't have to search too long to find stories of municipalities that have gone after unlicensed businesses for fines which are many times what the business earned, nor to find stories of clients suing business owners because of minor injuries. Let's say that as you're walking toward little Billy you trip and your camera hits him on the head necessitating a trip to the emergency room (an extreme example, I know, but relevant), in today's litigous society who are Mom and Dad going to look to for payment?

I recognize that everyone would like to make a little extra money, and having a camera some skills seems like an easy way to do it, but there's more to it than that. A lot more. The best advice I can offer is: Keep shooting, shoot every chance you get, but DO NOT take money for it. If someone likes the job you do, hey, they can treat you to supper or something. Once you get to the point where you can walk into a situation like you have described in this thread and deal without easily, then it's time to think about hanging out your shingle. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm not saying 'Don't do it', I'm simply saying, "Note yet!".

 

[imagemaker46]

Oh and part of it is a thick skin when it comes to what people have to say. You took offence to many of the comments made by people that are in the business as photographers. When someone calls you about booking a shoot do you come out and tell them "I'm new, I don't really have much experience or the equipment to do the job unless there is light in the room, but I won't charge you much" What has been written is the reality of this business. I'm sorry you were offended by the truth.

 

[Shades of Blue]

Oh and part of it is a thick skin when it comes to what people have to say. You took offence to many of the comments made by people that are in the business as photographers. When someone calls you about booking a shoot do you come out and tell them "I'm new, I don't really have much experience or the equipment to do the job unless there is light in the room, but I won't charge you much" What has been written is the reality of this business. I'm sorry you were offended by the truth.

I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers! But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases. I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend. Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked? Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge! My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will. I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.

The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here. We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books. But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin. EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.

I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that! I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate. You want to know something crazy? I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free. It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session. I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos. Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate.

I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Sometimes these threads don't seem so much like putting the cart before the horse as sitting in the cart out in the middle of nowhere and the horse is a few miles back going the other way! lol

So if the OP is in college going into education maybe this would relate - I've been a longtime teacher/educator, and this is like walking into a school expecting to teach without first student teaching, or even taking so much as an ed. psych class. I think I've put as much time and effort and learning etc. into my photography as I've done with my fulltime profession in education.

I think it takes knowing what you're doing to expect to get hired/paid for it. If someone is asking amateur/beginner level photography (not beginner pro)questions, does it seem realistic when they're expecting to go out and take on clients?? You should be past the portfolio building stage and know what you need to do to be in business. And I don't think it's really a good idea to need to ask people to take you thru the entire process to be able to get thru a session - and to already be taking on prospective clients.

I'd suggest to the OP to look at pro photographers websites like American Society of Media Photographers or PPA and learn what will be involved in doing work in photography.

 

[imagemaker46]

I think the biggest issue is with people buying cameras and believing that in a very short span they are good enough to become professionals. I don't care if someone wants to make some money shooting. What I keep hearing, and have been hearing for years is "I'm a professional photographer on the weekends" but Monday to Friday I have a really well paying job. The perception of photography has changed to the point where it's become an open professional hobby, littered with people that show up to events and offer to shoot for free. What has happened is that the photographers that are working full time are being thrown into the mix and people don't see the difference. How long does it take to gather enough experience and skill to quit a full time job and become a full time photographer? How many people would ever quit a steady pay cheque job to try and make it as a freelance photographer, I know these days I wouldn't give up a steady pay cheque to try. There are lots of amateur photographers on this forum that have the skills and experience, and do produce consistently good images that wouldn't quit their day job, they've also been shooting for a long time.

This forum gets new people on here all the time with the same question, how do I make money from my camera, the usual answer is, sell it.

 

[tirediron]

I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers! But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases. I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend. Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked? Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge! My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will. I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.

The musician analogy is an excellent one; may I use that? To respond, I would ask, "How many of those garage musicians (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever with that term) get a weekend gig at a pub having only had their guitar/sax/bass/harpsichord for only a few months? I'm willing to bet not many. Most of them have probably been practicing since they were in school and have many hours work to their credit before they get their first paid job.

The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here. We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books. But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin. EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.

Not the case at all. We're trying to help! It sounds harsh, even hurtful, but the reality is, many people don't know how much they don't know. To refer to your musician's analogy, would you say to me, if I had purchased my guitar six months ago (never having played a note in my life before that) and could now just manage to play "Stairway to Heaven" (more or less) I should seek paying gigs? I'm betting not!

I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that! I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate. You want to know something crazy? I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free. It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session. I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos. Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate. I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.

And the problem there will be raising your rates. People who paid you $50 last year for their Christmas card shot are not going to be pleased when you say the same shot this will cost them $200! Like Imagemaker, I have NO issue with anyone trying to make a go of paid photography, but I do feel that it's important to get across to them how to do it correctly.

 

[Shades of Blue]

I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers! But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases. I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend. Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked? Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge! My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will. I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.

The musician analogy is an excellent one; may I use that? To respond, I would ask, "How many of those garage musicians (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever with that term) get a weekend gig at a pub having only had their guitar/sax/bass/harpsichord for only a few months? I'm willing to bet not many. Most of them have probably been practicing since they were in school and have many hours work to their credit before they get their first paid job.

The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here. We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books. But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin. EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.

Not the case at all. We're trying to help! It sounds harsh, even hurtful, but the reality is, many people don't know how much they don't know. To refer to your musician's analogy, would you say to me, if I had purchased my guitar six months ago (never having played a note in my life before that) and could now just manage to play "Stairway to Heaven" (more or less) I should seek paying gigs? I'm betting not!

I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that! I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate. You want to know something crazy? I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free. It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session. I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos. Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate. I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.

And the problem there will be raising your rates. People who paid you $50 last year for their Christmas card shot are not going to be pleased when you say the same shot this will cost them $200! Like Imagemaker, I have NO issue with anyone trying to make a go of paid photography, but I do feel that it's important to get across to them how to do it correctly.

Ah see, you've caught me at my own analogy lol! The proof is in the product. If a band has a bunch of new musicians that don't know how to play a lick and they get a bar gig, chances are they won't be playing many more gigs if you get my drift. To me, if a photographer isn't very good, then it will show in how quickly they get repeat and referral business.

You guys have been awesome. I actually don't take offense to much and it's hard to hurt my feelings. I just see a lot of people around here taking offense when newbies mention business and I'm just calling it like I see it. People think they are better than what they are, and it's difficult to hear the truth. I've sat through countless critiques as a graphics major so I'm almost numb to it. When critiques are based on preference though, I tend to ignore fully.

And imagemaker46, you make some killer points about photography today. We actually had many discussions on that topic in college. As I said above, the cream will rise to the top...or however the saying goes. Think of it like this...the amateur photographers are servicing a part of the market that the professionals will never reach. Plenty of people will pay $200 for a session and that's great, but for every person out there that will pay $200, there are 20 that wouldn't or couldn't spend more than $75. That's the target market for the newbies IMO.