Photography and the Law.. from a Police Officer

[farmerj]

Yeah, it wasn't really meant as a comment towards you - just food for thought I guess...

(A lot of people just don't realize that the police have absolutely no obligation to protect them... They think everything will always be OK, because the police are there to save the day. lol)

What you refer to is a decision by the SCOTUS, Castle Rock vs Gonzales:
CASTLE ROCK V. GONZALES

 

[Josh66]

From watching ur cop shows they are very different haha

but so are all police in every country, I travel a lot and most places the police do not like a pic taken of them!!
The uk police cant do anything, there not aloud to look in ur pocket because it may offend you, not aloud to stop ur car without a good reason, not aloud to touch someone without thinking about getting sued!!
Come on uk police get ur guns and bamboo sticks out and toughen up!!

I think most of that is the same in the US.

They can't search you - not because you might be offended, but because it is a violation of our constitutional rights (in the US - I'm sure it's similar in the UK, as most of our constitution is based on UK common law).

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Josh66]

Be careful with this thread guys...

I think it was pretty much doomed from the start, but if it gets 'too political', it will just get locked...

I think as long as we can all be civil, it will be OK though...

 

[Josh66]

Yeah, it wasn't really meant as a comment towards you - just food for thought I guess...

(A lot of people just don't realize that the police have absolutely no obligation to protect them... They think everything will always be OK, because the police are there to save the day. lol)

What you refer to is a decision by the SCOTUS, Castle Rock vs Gonzales:
CASTLE ROCK V. GONZALES

Wow, it's hard to believe that a case like that didn't make it to the Supreme Court until 2005...

(I would have expected the precedent to be much older...)

 

[Vinny]

Good thread but something to think about ... 99.8% of photographers and videographers are doing it for reasons of good intent, unfortunately that 0.2% can change the way the rest of us operate. What pbelarge experienced is why it's possible police act the way they do, they don't know if you belong to the 99.8% or the 0.2%. It's unfortunate but I think it's the sign of the times.

And don't forget police are human beings as well .. they may have just had a A** H*** photographer given him/her a hard time and your the next person they come in contact with.

 

[sam_justice]

I don't want to raise any political issues, I deal with anti-Police people on a daily basis and I'm not going to have the same argument in my free time on a forum that I thoroughly enjoy browsing and posting on. I was just sharing some open information with fellow hobbyists and professionals.

 

[Josh66]

I don't want to raise any political issues, I deal with anti-Police people on a daily basis and I'm not going to have the same argument in my free time on a forum that I thoroughly enjoy browsing and posting on. I was just sharing some open information with fellow hobbyists and professionals.

Just sayin' - this thread is bound to get political... When it does, it will get locked.

I think we can probably delay that by being civil, and discussing this like adults, and all that - but I still think that eventually, this thread will be locked. Just the nature of the forum...

(All it takes is one person to ruin it for everyone...) <---[Funny how that's how it works, even for society in general...]

 

[table1349]

From watching ur cop shows they are very different haha

but so are all police in every country, I travel a lot and most places the police do not like a pic taken of them!!
The uk police cant do anything, there not aloud to look in ur pocket because it may offend you, not aloud to stop ur car without a good reason, not aloud to touch someone without thinking about getting sued!!
Come on uk police get ur guns and bamboo sticks out and toughen up!!

I think most of that is the same in the US.

They can't search you - not because you might be offended, but because it is a violation of our constitutional rights (in the US - I'm sure it's similar in the UK, as most of our constitution is based on UK common law).

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia is the last place to try and understand your rights and what the exceptions are to those rights.
Terry Stop Law & Legal Definition
What Happens When I Am Stopped By The Police

You can be searched under the confines of a Terry Stop.

 

[Josh66]

From watching ur cop shows they are very different haha

but so are all police in every country, I travel a lot and most places the police do not like a pic taken of them!!
The uk police cant do anything, there not aloud to look in ur pocket because it may offend you, not aloud to stop ur car without a good reason, not aloud to touch someone without thinking about getting sued!!
Come on uk police get ur guns and bamboo sticks out and toughen up!!

I think most of that is the same in the US.

They can't search you - not because you might be offended, but because it is a violation of our constitutional rights (in the US - I'm sure it's similar in the UK, as most of our constitution is based on UK common law).

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia is the last place to try and understand your rights and what the exceptions are to those rights.
Terry Stop Law & Legal Definition
What Happens When I Am Stopped By The Police

You can be searched under the confines of a Terry Stop.

That isn't a violation of the 4th amendment though... So, what's wrong with the Wikipedia link I posted?

(I'm not saying that I agree with it, but courts and elected officials have decided that that's the way it is, so ... just accept it. Or try to change the law (good luck).)

edit

BTW - the Terry Stop details are linked to in that Wikipedia article...

 

[table1349]

I think most of that is the same in the US.

They can't search you - not because you might be offended, but because it is a violation of our constitutional rights (in the US - I'm sure it's similar in the UK, as most of our constitution is based on UK common law).

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia is the last place to try and understand your rights and what the exceptions are to those rights.
Terry Stop Law & Legal Definition
What Happens When I Am Stopped By The Police

You can be searched under the confines of a Terry Stop.

That isn't a violation of the 4th amendment though... So, what's wrong with the Wikipedia link I posted?

(I'm not saying that I agree with it, but courts and elected officials have decided that that's the way it is, so ... just accept it. Or try to change the law (good luck).)

When it comes to matters of law, the constitution and the legal process Wikipedia is not one of the sites that should be trusted. It is a user information provided site and is not a trusted or recognized reference source.

Here is a nice little explanation of the exceptions to the 4th amendments.

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment: Annotations pg. 3 of 6

 

[Josh66]

It is a user information provided site and is not a trusted or recognized reference source.

OK, I'll agree with that. Still, it's good enough to convey the general concept...

That's all I really posted it for, the general concept, and the fact that the UK has similar laws.

(I assumed that was clear with the context of my post, but maybe not. Sorry if it confused anyone...)

 

[magkelly]

No offense, but technically legal or not, unless that's your job and you are a military photographer really you shouldn't be taking pics of soldiers on duty or of military bases anywhere. Particularly in times like these. It might not get you busted in terms of the local laws but it could get you busted for offering "aid to the enemy" or whatever they choose to call it now. Seriously. If you should by chance publish pics taken off a military base say on a website just to get a CC and they get noticed by the military you could be facing some serious charges regardless of local laws.

Sorry, don't mean to offend, but it's not such a good idea. Taking pics of military personnel and bases could actually put them in the way of harm, particularly now. It's one thing to take a snapshot of a family member in their uniform to put in someone's wallet, but it's entirely another to take pics of people on duty and/or the bases they are living on. It could very well lead to a real security breach and lives lost and none of us wants that.
Pictures of any military installation, or government building, however innocent, could be used for bad purposes. You do have to be careful about that.

I'm all for being free to photograph, but not at the expense of the lives those serving and/or working for the government. I do have access to a local military base, but you won't catch me taking candid pictures over there for that reason. I don't want to accidentally make some poor soldier a target, shrug.

 

[Josh66]

No offense, but technically legal or not, unless that's your job and you are a military photographer really you shouldn't be taking pics of soldiers on duty or of military bases anywhere.

Why not? I guess you think we would all be better off if our government could do whatever it wanted without anybody knowing anything about it?
(EDIT - Where do you think all the pictures you see in the newspaper come from..??)

What does our military have to hide from American citizens (only talking about activities which would be visible to the public) who happen to own a camera?

I think that our armed forces are smart enough to know when they are in the public eye and when they are not, and act accordingly.

I fully agree that there are things they do that only a select few need to know about, but they surely are smart enough not to do that stuff in front of civilian photographers...

If there were a real security risk, it would already be illegal, and the MP's would be on your ass before you knew what aperture you were using.
(Try sneaking past the ropes at an airshow and see what happens...)

 

[usayit]

magkelly's post is a clear indication that we have lost our way.... people are being ruled by fear rather than justice and rights.

"you could be facing some serious charges regardless of local laws."

charges regardless to local laws? Freakin kiddin me? Are we now just making up charges just to harass and jail people?

There is so much wrong with that post... I cannot even begin to discuss.

 

[crimbfighter]

I tried and tried, even paced back and forth in front of my computer trying desperately not to post on this thread, but I finally caved...

Our criminal justice system here in the US is not perfect. No matter how rigid a law may be, it ultimately is being enforced by people. And as people, mistakes will be made. They always have, and always will. No matter how much I wish only perfect people would get hired as cops, it will never happen. Have we come a long way since the days when an officer was hired on a hand shake? In most respects, yes. In some, no. I know when I got hired as a cop, they conducted a background investigation (like they do with all new hires) that was so extensive they even talked to every past coworker, employer and even my childhood neighbors. For every reference I put on my resume, they called them, then asked them for two more people each who knew me, then called them. Then an eight hour psychological exam by a psychologist followed that. Does every department nation wide go that into depth with hiring processes? No, but many do.

There are many people I come in contact with every day, who hate me, absolutely hate me, only because of the uniform I wear. People who haven't met me, haven't said more than one word to me. Imagine if people hated you, only because you carried a camera?

Now, many people on here have made many valid points. There are cops that have made grave mistakes and horrible judgement calls. But also, understand we often have to make life and death decisions in a split second, decisions that have eternity to be second guessed. Now, I'm sure many are thinking, "how does this relate directly to dealing with photographers?" In many ways, it doesn't. However, when we encounter someone, we have only seconds, maybe a minute or two to determine what is going on. Then, god forbid we make the wrong decision, and somebody gets hurt, killed or something else that we can't even think of happens. No matter what decision we make, somebody would be pointing the finger at us. We contact the photographer and he hates us for harassing him, we don't contact the photographer and it turns out he's the next Ted Bundy and he was picking out his next victim, then the community hates us for not stopping it. Or it turned out to be a terrorist photographing the bridge to find the weak points to best place his bombs. These are the thing we have to think about living in a post 9/11 era. Does anyone here honestly think September 11th occurred without any photographic recon of the area? My point is, we have an impossible job description. Someone will always be angry at the decisions we are asked to make. There is incredible pressure being placed on us to prevent every crime that occurs, and when we don't stop it, people want us to hang for not "protecting and serving." I bring this up, because I implore everyone, think about all sides of the argument before making rash generalizations like "all cops are this" or "all cops are that". If I used that mentality, I could say, "all photographers are paparazzi" Is that a fair statement to make? Oh, and by the way, we really don't like it when people call us pigs. It's derogatory and hateful. We may not let on, but we are people, subject to emotions like anyone else. Doing so serves no purpose but to fuel the "us vs. them" mentality.

Several on here mentioned how they wish officers were better educated on the topic of photographers and what their rights are. I agree, whole heartedly. But, keep in mind that education is a two way street. We do have a method to our madness, and we generally don't things on a whim. If this topic is of great importance to you, go down to your local police department and ask for a copy of their policy and procedure manual. Review it, then make a logical and reasonable argument for what they can do to educate their officers, change their policies, ect. How can you expect a department to act on something they may not realize is an issue effecting their community? Remember, police are a government body, and the government is there to serve us. Believe it or not, your voice can make a difference. Don't just sit back in your chair and complain when you feel something needs to be changed. It's always been my belief, unless you've tried something to fix the problem, you don't have the right to complain.

Anyway, I'll sum up before I go on a rant. This is only my small part to try and shed some light on why we do the things we do. In no way, do I defend what every cop does. I have seen several make disappointing mistakes, like some of the ones sensationalized by Youtube videos. But believe me, there is always more to the story than what you see in the one minute video clip, and there is a lot more accountability in law enforcement then ever before, and things are always changing for the better. Albeit sometimes at a glacial pace... Just keep in mind, cops aren't perfect, but neither are you.