POLICE and Photography

[Ron Evers]

Why I do not trust the police & this happens far too often. This is a local one - grown man living with his mother - we got him.

quote

Guy Paul Morin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Guy Paul Morin is a Canadian who was wrongly convicted of the October 1984 rape and murder of his eight-year-old next-door neighbour, Christine Jessop of Queensville, Ontario. DNA testing led to a subsequent overturning of this verdict.
Morin was acquitted of murder at his first trial in 1986.[1] The Crown exercised its right to appeal the verdict on the grounds that the trial judge made a fundamental error prejudicing the Crown's right to a fair trial.[2] In 1987 the Court of Appeal ordered a new trial.[3] The retrial was delayed until 1992 by Morin's own appeals based on the Crown's non-disclosure of exculpatory evidence and by other issues, including the double jeopardy rule.[3]
Morin was convicted at his second trial and was sentenced to life imprisonment.[4] Unlike others convicted of murdering children after sexually abusing them, he was kept in the general population throughout his time in prison.[5] Improvements in DNA testing led to a test in 1995 which excluded Morin as the murderer.[6] Morin's appeal of his conviction was allowed (i.e., the conviction was reversed), and a directed verdict of acquittal entered in the appeal.[3]
An inquiry culminating in the Kaufman Report into Morin's case also uncovered evidence of police and prosecutorial misconduct, and of misrepresentation of forensic evidence by the Ontario Centre of Forensic Sciences.[3][7]

 

[crimbfighter]

First, to the OP and to the others following this thread, I apologize for allowing myself to end up in a personal exchange with others. I'm the first to get upset with posters when they get into a battle of their opinions rather than utilizing this forum for it's intended purpose. I had to walk away from the computer for a bit to realize how personally I was taking this thread. That unfortunately caused me to say things I wouldn't normally say about others. So, moving on.

Now, to Ron, I'm sorry you don't trust police. The case you cited is a good example of how doing police work without an open mind can effectively ruin a persons life. There are no excuses for what happened in that case. There are places in this country where, even today, people are wrongly accused of crimes, although it is extremely rare. I'm sure my word doesn't really count for much, but I can attest to the integrity in law enforcement today. If there's any message I can convey, it's that the cases of intentional wrong doing by police is infinitesimal, and when it's found, it's dealt with swiftly and harshly. Law enforcement is a much different profession than it was even 20 years ago. There are much higher standards than there were, and the level of professionalism is light years ahead of where it was. A good example of this, at least in Wisconsin, is many departments here require a bachelors degree to even be considered for hiring. Something that was unheard of even a decade ago. Many of my coworkers, in fact, have their Masters, and a couple are even working on their doctorate.

Also, I always caution people not to take new articles at face value. I'm not saying the one you've cited isn't true, but there is always more going on than is printed in the media. I have personally worked cases where the articles the next day contained things that simply weren't true, they didn't happen. The papers made assumptions about the investigations and they didn't have all the facts. I've always encouraged people who are really concerned about a particular case, to simply conduct an open records request. Everything we do is public record from our salaries to every document we've ever written. Though when I make that suggestion, nobody has yet to follow through with it. Which tells me they don't really want to know the facts, they'd rather just believe what they read in the headlines.

 

[misstwinklytoes]

I just want to know if MissTwinkle met her hubby at one of those MANY stops by the cops... lmao

LOL No! I met him as his waitress in a restaurant where all the cops ate, though! He wasn't a cop then yet, though.

 

[SecondShot]

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him myself, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Stormchase]

Lol well I didn't expect the thread to go this direction but it has brought up many good points on all sides. Too many to quote in this reply. I think its funny seeing some fellow TPFers come out of their shells. no apologies needed. I have been enjoying the posts from everyone.
I do want to add something ... if your car is about to be searched (don't ask) and you are asked if you " have any weapons, knives, guns, bazookas?" NEVER say you have a bazooka behind your seat lol. Just trust me on this lol.

 

[DerekSalem]

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him myself, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related

See the thing is, he's pushing his limits on purpose. That's *just* as bad as breaking the law, in my opinion. It's like a kid being told he can't step into the house, so he crawls in on all fours.

In essence, he's trying to push the law as much as he can. Heck, in the second video he asks the cop to tell him what a sign says...when he can *easily* tell for himself that it says "this is a federal building".

In reality people like this are only out to cause trouble, just so they can tell the people meant to enforce our laws that they're not doing anything wrong. The problem is the more you push up against the laws, the better the chances that those laws will be changed to condemn you. It's childish and idiotic.

 

[Brutus]

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him myself, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related

See the thing is, he's pushing his limits on purpose. That's *just* as bad as breaking the law, in my opinion. It's like a kid being told he can't step into the house, so he crawls in on all fours.

In essence, he's trying to push the law as much as he can. Heck, in the second video he asks the cop to tell him what a sign says...when he can *easily* tell for himself that it says "this is a federal building".

In reality people like this are only out to cause trouble, just so they can tell the people meant to enforce our laws that they're not doing anything wrong. The problem is the more you push up against the laws, the better the chances that those laws will be changed to condemn you. It's childish and idiotic.

The thing is, he isn't even pushing the law whatsoever. He is well within the limits of the law, and is not even close to breaking any. And the reason they do it is to bring attention to the issue, because of how often police enforce laws that don't exist and are never caught because of people not knowing their rights or because the person has no way to show their rights were abused.

 

[SecondShot]

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him myself, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related

See the thing is, he's pushing his limits on purpose. That's *just* as bad as breaking the law, in my opinion. It's like a kid being told he can't step into the house, so he crawls in on all fours.

In essence, he's trying to push the law as much as he can. Heck, in the second video he asks the cop to tell him what a sign says...when he can *easily* tell for himself that it says "this is a federal building".

In reality people like this are only out to cause trouble, just so they can tell the people meant to enforce our laws that they're not doing anything wrong. The problem is the more you push up against the laws, the better the chances that those laws will be changed to condemn you. It's childish and idiotic.

How is this like a kid being told he can't step into the house? The problem is just that. He CAN step into the "House", he can and so can everyone else.

If his knowledge of what police can and cannot ask for, or at a certain point demand is considered pushing the law, then it's a sad state of affairs. We should all just be ignorant of what our rights are and roll over whenever a cop comes around.

Here, this is another youtube video - this time from a Former defense attorney, and now a law professor advising his students to "Never speak to the Police". A second video shows the second half of the lecture from his guest speaker, a detective at the local PD re-iterating the same message. Funny, isn't it?


note: these are long, but informative.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE[/ame]

 

[SecondShot]

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him myself, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related

See the thing is, he's pushing his limits on purpose. That's *just* as bad as breaking the law, in my opinion. It's like a kid being told he can't step into the house, so he crawls in on all fours.

In essence, he's trying to push the law as much as he can. Heck, in the second video he asks the cop to tell him what a sign says...when he can *easily* tell for himself that it says "this is a federal building".

In reality people like this are only out to cause trouble, just so they can tell the people meant to enforce our laws that they're not doing anything wrong. The problem is the more you push up against the laws, the better the chances that those laws will be changed to condemn you. It's childish and idiotic.

The thing is, he isn't even pushing the law whatsoever. He is well within the limits of the law, and is not even close to breaking any. And the reason they do it is to bring attention to the issue, because of how often police enforce laws that don't exist and are never caught because of people not knowing their rights or because the person has no way to show their rights were abused.

This is very true. The following examples are on the extreme side, but good examples nonetheless.

Officer Meserhle of the Oakland PD would likely have never been charged, or convicted of killing Oscar Grant in the now infamous Oakland BART shooting. Oscar Grant was lying prone, on his stomach, with another officer's knee on his neck. Yet, he pulled out his gun and shot him in the back. Accident or Murder, he killed him, and the presence of photo and video evidence helped convict him.

Police in College Park, MD were caught on camera beating a student who apparently got too close to them as he was celebrating his school's win over Duke.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPwyodTkYA&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

Without cameras and videos as evidence, the word of police officers will almost always carry more weight than the common citizen. What other methods of keeping everyone accountable and transparent are as effective?

 

[bruce282]

Wow. I expect this kind of passion in a thread in one of my gun forums.

Disclaimer

I'm a huge fan of the bill of rights, all of them. I have a CWP from the state of Virginia and carry a concealed 9mm with me most of the time.
I lost several friends in the Pentagon on 9/11. Any mention of laws pertain to the Commonwealth of Virginia only.

IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.

As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.

The hospital down the road form me has a sign proclaiming "No Weapons Allowed". If I chose to ignore that sign and bring my Glock with me inside I have broken no law, all the hospital can do is ask me to leave. Should I refuse then I am guilty of Criminal Trespass a Class 1 misdemeanor under Va law. If there was a sign indicating No Cameras the same would hold true.

LEO's local, state, or federal perform a job that few would want to do. They can only hope that when they pull over that SUV with the tinted windows at 3:00am that there are not 4 bangers inside with Ak's.

VA law says I don't have to notify a LEO that I'm armed should I be pulled over. Common sense says I'd be fool not to. Crazy folks out there shoot cops all the time. The key to a happy interaction with the police while armed is to do everything possible to let them know they are totally in charge of the situation. Their first responsibility is their safety.

Whether you like it or not, this is not your fathers world of the 40's and 50's. It's full of dangerous and crazy people, and if a LEO thinks his life is in danger you may find yourself kissing concrete and cuffed while things are sorted out.

Bruce

 

[SecondShot]

IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.

As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.

1) He needs no other reason than the want of taking pictures of buildings. It matters NOT if it is a Four Seasons Hotel, a Federal Office Building, a Courthouse, or a Police Station. It doesn't preclude police to inquire about what you're doing, perhaps. But knowing his rights were key. Hats off to him for knowing it, sticking to his ground, and funny enough, the police couldn't do anything more. You didn't see them detaining him, arresting him - they just let him go, because they had nothing else. You'll note that he also went to take pictures in broad daylight, with the same response.

2) You must be viewing some other video, because I do not see the kid who was beat in the middle of a mob, nor was he blocking a public street, starting fires, or destroying others' property. Yet he's certainly getting the full force of about 3-4 Riot Police Officer's Batons to the neck and back. He was also charged with assaulting a police horse, but I didn't see him strike any one, let alone any horse. In your version of the video, did you catch it? Maybe they were having a bad day? Maybe they decided that they'd rather attack this "kid" instead of the ones blocking the on-campus street. I guess their wives were really proud of their dear hubby's.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

...because of how often police enforce laws that don't exist and are never caught because of people not knowing their rights or because the person has no way to show their rights were abused.

And some people are doing something about it.

Copwatch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Josh66]

IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.

As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.

1) He needs no other reason than the want of taking pictures of buildings. It matters NOT if it is a Four Seasons Hotel, a Federal Office Building, a Courthouse, or a Police Station. It doesn't preclude police to inquire about what you're doing, perhaps. But knowing his rights were key. Hats off to him for knowing it, sticking to his ground, and funny enough, the police couldn't do anything more. You didn't see them detaining him, arresting him - they just let him go, because they had nothing else. You'll note that he also went to take pictures in broad daylight, with the same response.

I think it's still clear that the whole point of the 'photo outing' was to provoke a reaction from law enforcement though...

Yeah, he has every right to go take the pictures, but he probably could have handled it differently and still came home with the same pictures.

If you were to go try to do the same thing, I think you would have to go into it knowing that you might be spending the night in jail.
Yeah, he most likely would have been released without being charged, but that's not something most people would want to gamble on.

What if he did get arrested, and his 'evidence' somehow got corrupted, erased, or just 'lost'? Yeah, it would be illegal for them to do that, and most cops probably wouldn't, but some would... In court, it would be your word against a cops word.

I've seen them forget to document things on evidence sheets (everyone just plain forgets sometimes) before, and it wouldn't surprise me if every now and then some of them 'accidentally' leave it in the car when they process you in...

I've been arrested before for BS where I was later released with no charges, and half the crap I had wasn't even on the inventory. I got it all back, but there was no record that I ever had it. If any of it had gotten 'lost' there would be no way for me to prove I had it in the first place. I think that was just a case where they just forgot to write it down...

Everyone assumes that just because you didn't do anything, they can't arrest you. They can do pretty much anything they want...

I don't know what the law is in other states, but in Texas they have 2 years to file charges on you from the time of arrest. And I hear that's relatively short compared to other states...

They'll spend that time trying to build a case on you, and if they can - they charge you. If they can't - no charges filed, but you still had to spend the night in jail.

Do you really want to have to call the courthouse every week for 2 years to find out if you have to appear in court? I had to do that ... and yes, it's BS - it ended up just going away, but I still had to spend the weekend in jail (got arrested Saturday night, lol - you just have to sit there till Monday morning).

I don't know if I was ever even 'technically' under arrest - they didn't read me my rights (but I don't think they really have to, so that might not mean anything), and I was never arraigned. They just let me walk out Monday morning. No charges filed, never saw a judge, and then it was my responsibility to call every week for 2 years to make sure they weren't going to file something on me.

If a few pictures is worth that to you, go for it.

 

[DerekSalem]

I'm not debating his rights to take pictures there...and I'm not debating his rights on whether to answer questions or provide ID.

What I'm complaining about is how the guy specifically went to that destination to elicit a response. He had a video camera running and said specific things to elicit a response.

He may have been legally fine in doing what he did...but he did it all just to elicit a response from the cop to show off his rights.

So ya, he was legally fine to do what he did and he was "pushing the law" in those terms (since he was within the law), but he was pushing the fact that he was within the law *JUST* to elicit a response from a cop. That's irresponsible and immature.


All he had to do was politely, and humbly, give the cop what he wanted. If he would have worked with the cop in the first place there would have been no problem. Speaking as someone in the military it would be *much* nicer if people did that because it takes away fear. I have more cop friends than I care to admit (being someone that doesn't really trust cops) and they all say the same thing: the reason they usually don't trust people is because they're fearful of a reaction.

The cops just wanted to know that these guys weren't there to do something that would negatively affect the people in the area. Sure, they don't have a *RIGHT* to know what the guys were doing there...but they were rightfully curious and just wanted to make sure the situation was safe. Being a police officer is one of the most dangerous domestic jobs in the country and people trying to hide things doesn't exactly instill confidence in the officers.

So put your rights above the safety and feelings of others. That should make the situation better.

 

[bruce282]

IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.

As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.

1) He needs no other reason than the want of taking pictures of buildings. It matters NOT if it is a Four Seasons Hotel, a Federal Office Building, a Courthouse, or a Police Station. It doesn't preclude police to inquire about what you're doing, perhaps. But knowing his rights were key. Hats off to him for knowing it, sticking to his ground, and funny enough, the police couldn't do anything more. You didn't see them detaining him, arresting him - they just let him go, because they had nothing else. You'll note that he also went to take pictures in broad daylight, with the same response.

2) You must be viewing some other video, because I do not see the kid who was beat in the middle of a mob, nor was he blocking a public street, starting fires, or destroying others' property. Yet he's certainly getting the full force of about 3-4 Riot Police Officer's Batons to the neck and back. He was also charged with assaulting a police horse, but I didn't see him strike any one, let alone any horse. In your version of the video, did you catch it? Maybe they were having a bad day? Maybe they decided that they'd rather attack this "kid" instead of the ones blocking the on-campus street. I guess their wives were really proud of their dear hubby's.

1. And the point I made was he was there to stir up crap, not to photograph a federal building at night. Maybe his real goal was to get his 5 minutes of fame on youtube, I don't know. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. Like it or not we have no knock warrants, the FISA court and the Patriot Act.

2. No I don't have any secret video. No one has any video following our friend from the time the Duke game ended until he ran into his problem, so both of us have to assume what happened prior to the video shown. Do I think the cops overreacted, yup. Do I think the guy was stupid for being where he was, when he was, yup. If he was smart enough to get into UMd he should have been smart enough to look around and realize that things were becoming out of hand. Since you live in Maryland I assume you are familiar with all the crap that went on after they won the National Championship, the student body was warned not to do it again.

I'm not stupid enough to think that every LEO in the country is a fair haired upstanding person. You live a state where a former governor had to resign as VP due to criminal charges, we both live next to city where the "mayor for live" liked smoking crack, and I live in state where several local officials have been indited on charges.

The USA is not a perfect place, but I can't think of any other place I would rather live.

Bruce