Pros Opinion on a Newbie...

[Stilltime]

I'm sure you will note, in the very line you quoted, that I said taking pictures of your friend's wedding was not about devaluation.

My quoting you was more in response to the "many (most?) of the comments on TPF" part, than you personally.

 

[bjorkfiend]

...

 

[Seefutlung]

I am one who is pretty much against newbies taking paying jobs before they have established the skill set and experienced required for a paid job.

For me, it isn't about competition, it is all about taking good money for a crappy product. I am against the disservice an unqualified newbie gives to the client.

 

[TheOtherBob]

However I belive that there are many who are not in such a position, but do issue a big cautionary warning to those looking to jump into the deep end of the swimming pool. Yes some people are going to swim well and come out on tops - but more are going to flounder and possibly drown (fail) in the attempt.
Fact is that a professional job (be it a wedding or a modeling shoot or product photography) has certain requirements of both photographer and their kit to get things to come out right. When you take something like a wedding - a one off event - there is huge pressure on the photographer to perform above and beyond their best to get all the required shots. Starting from scratch because you can take some good profile shots is a very big risk - ignoring the chances of kit failure - there is the whole topic of lighting, weather, space, time and more at the wedding. I think many try to impart this warning on newer photographers to discourage them from making a fool of themselves and ruining the day for a new couple.
That can lead to friction and loss of friends as well as (at the worst end) lead to legal action being taken.

I think that's the right answer. Someone comes onto the board and says, in essence, "I just bought a hammer -- I've used it a couple of times, and everyone says the nails I've hammered are pretty straight. So a friend of mine wants me to build his house -- should I do it?"

And the answer is "Nooooooo!" Building a house requires so much more than just a hammer -- in both experience and equipment. Do you know plumbing? Do you know architecture? Do you know electrical? Do you have a ladder and a cement mixer and a saw? These are things you have to know and have before you even think about walking out there and building a house -- for pay or for free.

The comeback to that is "well, he's really just looking for a shotgun shack, and he can't afford anything else. So if I don't do it, no one will." But the prevailing view is that although people will say up front that the quality doesn't matter, when they move in and the house doesn't have a roof...they'll be upset. (And that saying "but I told you I didn't know how to do roofs!" won't placate them.)

Taking a camera and doing wedding photography is the same. You don't know lighting? You don't know posing? You don't have fast glass and good lighting gear and backup bodies and all the other things that you need? If not, it will be very, very difficult to get even basic-quality shots -- and although people say they don't care about quality, they're going to be miffed when every picture is badly underexposed, or the only shot of her saying "I do" is blurry and cuts off the top of her head, or when you're standing in the way of everything during the ceremony.

But, that being said, there are people out there for whom an amateur photographer is really what they're looking for -- a friend of mine got married in front of two witnesses, and I snapped a few shots with a pocket digital at her request. Did it matter that the pictures weren't great? Not in the least -- it wasn't an event for her (I mean, she was wearing jeans, for goodness sakes), so even if all of the pictures had been blank she wouldn't have minded. If that's truly the case...snap away -- some pictures are better than none.

But be careful -- particularly if they've gone to the trouble of getting a church, a dress, etc. If so, expectations are likely going to be higher than they might let on, and that's a good way to find yourself in a jam -- I think that's what people on here are trying to warn others about.

 

[Lynnzora]

Well everyone thanks for all of the replies. I now have a whole new understanding of the topic. It's good to know how everyone feels. I doubt this thread would change anyone's mind about how they feel but I think it's great to hear different opinions. I stand my opinion that if the consumer wants to pay a little less for something not pro... then that's their choice. For all I care, people can put an ad in the paper that they'll sale professional Polaroid shots for $5 each. If someone goes for that knowing what the person does and seeing their work, that's on them. Who are we to get mad at the person trying to make a living? It's lame but... hey... not really our business. What I do have a problem with if someone is misleading and takes advantage of someone. However, if they see your work and that's what they want, Why not give it to them.

My situation started with just a love for photography. I've always loved taking pictures. I've taken classes throughout high school and college. Although mostly in film. I've had digital that I would work with on my own. So when talk about a certain issue that the photo has such as white balance or aperture... I hesitate because I need to better familiarize myself with the terminology. However, that doesn't mean I just picked up a camera yesterday. It started with me taking a bunch of pics for family and friends who may have put their pics up on their web pages. Then there friends want me to take pictures, and their friends want me to take pictures. At what point (while you're learning or building your portfolio) is it ok to ask for a little something to fill your gas tank or buy the CD or DVDs they want you to burn the images on... or the prints they want made? I'm sorry if someone visually sees what type of work I do and they want it and also want to pay me for it... something I absolutely LOVE doing. Why would I turn them down? They walk away happy and so do I with some extra funds for my 5 month old child.

I'm a professional IN-TRAINING who is opening up a photography business with a professional. He's worked as a photog for going on 15 years off and on. It's really exciting for me. Plus I found a site (TPF) that for the most part people seem to be helpful and give critiques that helped improve my photos by far. But I see it's probably best to save the bulk of the questions for my professor. I have no problem with that. I get the feeling that with some, it's less about what the customer is happy with and more about... "How dare this newbie encroach upon MY territory?" My photography friend who brings in six figures? Do you think he's worrying about me taking pictures from someone. I actually have two who make a living as a photographer. If anything, they support me. They throw jobs they know I can do my way and I do the same when someone is asking for something huge. The truth is... If you are doing your thing as a photographer. EXCELLENT PHOTOS... DEPENDABLE... ON-TIME... WONDERFUL PERSONALITY... HAVE A "THE CUSTOMER'S ALWAYS RIGHT" ATTITUDE... No one in the world can pull your business away from you. Who cares what the next person is doing.

Anyway, this has been a really nice discussion. To the newbies really serious about this... I say reach for your dreams. Keep asking questions and training. Obviously like people on here has said make sure people are knowledgable of what you can do and don't bite off more than you can chew. Also thanks to you pros who have commented on my pictures constructively. You've been extremely helpful!

 

[Lynnzora]

I am one who is pretty much against newbies taking paying jobs before they have established the skill set and experienced required for a paid job.

For me, it isn't about competition, it is all about taking good money for a crappy product. I am against the disservice an unqualified newbie gives to the client.

What's a crappy product? I've taken pictures and put them up. Some people have said they're wonderful... be it through a thread or private message. Then the next person will come along and say that it doesn't do anything for them... or they hate it.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if the customer is happy, that's all that matters... And this thread has shown me that quite frankly it is IN GREAT PART about competition. That's why I'll limit what I share. We're a part of a society who feels threatened by the next person being successful. We really don't like to see each other succeed. It's sad. I don't understand it because I run a free after school program for children where my main goal is to help them and people in general become more valuable members of the society through tutoring, helping them apply for scholarships, college, jobs... I find joy in helping and encouraging others so that's why this baffles me. There are a lot of people in general who choose to do nothing with their life. That's why I have a problem when people try to shoot down someone who is.

But enough of these looong posts. lol Like I said, people have their own opinions. I'm going to go out there and TRAIN to be the best photographer I can be and accept jobs along the way... making my customers happy and help pay for the training that will take me to the next level. Those who have a problem with that... and supporting my 5 month old son. oh well. Feel Free to hate on me. That's actually a song. Anyway, I've been on the computer for way too long. Have a wonderful day ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Seefutlung]

What's a crappy product. I've taken pictures and put them up that some people say are wonderful be it through a thread or private message. Then the next person will come along and say that it doesn't do anything for them... or they hate it.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if the customer is happy that's all that matters... And this thread has shown me that quite frankly it is IN GREAT PART about competition. That's why I'll limit what I share. We're a part of a society who feels threatened by the next person being successful. We really don't like to see each other succeed. It's sad. I don't understand it because I run a free after school program for children where my main goal is to help them become more valuable member of the society through tutoring, helping them apply for scholarships, and college... There are a lot of people in general who choose to do nothing with their life. That's why I have a problem when people try to shoot down someone who is.

But enough of these looong posts. lol Like I said, people have their own opinions. I'm going to go out there a TRAIN to be the best photographer I can be and along the way except jobs along the way that will make my customers happy and help pay for the training that will take me to the next level. Those who have a problem with that... and supporting my 5 month old son. oh well. Feel Free to hate on me. That's actually a song. Anyway, I've been on the computer for way too long. Have a wonderful day guys.

A crappy product is one that does not meet what a general consensus of professional photographers consider less than average for that particular product. It is not in the eye of what a few non-professional consider "good".

Another method to see what is "average" is to check out the web site of a few "professional" photogs in the area who shoot similar subject matter and compare the images of a "newbie" to the professional and objectively see how the newbie images compare to the professional image.

While making the customer happy is significant ... another part of the equation is attaining and maintaining a level of professionalism with your product. One of the criteria of a professional is consistancy. A non-professional can get lucky and get a "hit" every now and then ... the pro gets a hit every third time at bat. A pro, in photography, will deliver an exceptional product, each and every day for each and every client.

Additionally, I, as a pro, never feared competition ... but then I was a news photog getting a salary and not a commercial photog marketing my wares every week. I see a flood of discount wedding and commercial photogs bringing down the market in pricing and delivering less than professional quality products.

Once again, my main point is a crappy product for a once in a lifetime event runs, against what I consider ethical and proper. To me, a professional is all about consistancy and quality of product, not about accounting terms. If you consistancy deliver to your customers a product equal to what a professional photog(s) consider "par" or "average" for their industry ... then you're a professional and should be compensated at a professional rate for your work. If your work is sub-par and below average for a professional shooting a similar item, then you should not charge for your services and refer the customer to a pro where the customer will recieve the proper value-to-dollar for the final product.

Gary

Gary

 

[Village Idiot]

There's a big difference in knowing how to work a rebel XTI and 430EX to get amazing pictures and charging little for a wedding as opposed to not even knowing how to adjust the camera for a proper exposure in manual mode and shooting green box and getting mediocre results and charging a little.

There's always that caveat that if you're shooting for experience in a field you've never done before and you don't know what you're doing, you're better off explaining this rather than not alerting the people at all.

Not everyone knows that $750 is a steal for a good wedding photographer and that some people will pay $5000+ for a wedding photographer.

 

[Stilltime]

For me, it isn't about competition, it is all about taking good money for a crappy product. I am against the disservice an unqualified newbie gives to the client.

It's only a disservice if there's misrepresentation of what the photographer can deliver. Then again, I like to assume that most people have a logical understanding of "you get what you pay for". Where does onus lay in making sure the client gets what they want? In the amateur photographer who has claimed to be nothing but, or in the client who has expectations beyond what said amateur claims to be able to produce?

Which brings me to my next point. Photographers, whether amateurs or "professional", need not bite off more than they can chew. Don't take jobs from people expecting something you can't deliver.

The only disservice to the client I see are when horrible photographers make unsubstantiated claims about their experience, talent and skill in order to take money from people willing to spend it.

If the only cars available were $250 000 luxury cars with all the bells and whistles - features that a lot of people simply don't need or are indifferent to, a lot of people wouldn't drive. Fortunately for my Kia-price-range loving self, the market isn't all or nothing. I have the option to choose lesser priced, and thus, not as luxurious cars that happen suit my needs just fine.

My point is, the photos I take with my camera and skill set look beautiful on my walls. That's not to say I shouldn't (or won't) learn to take the best photos I can, or that I don't acknowledge those who are better than me, because lets face it, a Kia is in a different class from a Lexus. And so am I in terms of my skills and abilities. But someone people are perfectly fine with a Kia.

ETA: My perspective is mainly from the "taking photos for friends/doing favors" categories. In terms of listed advertising photographers, I agree with the majority when they talk about poor quality. As I said above, I can link a few galleries right now that will make your eyes bleed and they actually want to CHARGE people for their services. It's messed up.

 

[Overread]

It's only a disservice if there's misrepresentation of what the photographer can deliver. Then again, I like to assume that most people have a logical understanding of "you get what you pay for".

This is - however - part of the problem.
People might see the shots of an amateur photographers studio shoot and think that the results are fantastic - just what they want. So they hire the amateur for the wedding shoot based on that. The problem is that they then assume that because the photographer can get those results once that they are capable of getting them again in the wedding environment.
The risk is that many newer photographers have not yet come to appreciate that success in one area of photography does not translate to automatic success in other areas - each area is its own game, with its one demands and pitfalls.

 

[Stilltime]

This is - however - part of the problem.
People might see the shots of an amateur photographers studio shoot and think that the results are fantastic - just what they want. So they hire the amateur for the wedding shoot based on that. The problem is that they then assume that because the photographer can get those results once that they are capable of getting them again in the wedding environment.
The risk is that many newer photographers have not yet come to appreciate that success in one area of photography does not translate to automatic success in other areas - each area is its own game, with its one demands and pitfalls.

People are idiots. So an ameteur should never take a paying job, or do favors for friends and family because sometime, somewhere, someone saw studio pictures and picked that photograher for a wedding and the pictures sucked?

 

[Overread]

I never said never
I simply outlined the risk and a potential way where even a review of work can lead to a dissapointment in results. I am not saying that amateurs are all cut from the same loaf - but that there is often a great similarity between them.
Its a risk and one which more experienced photographers (amateurs or pros) know of either from tales or their own bitter experiences -

 

[Lynnzora]

I'm just wondering what all the talk about a newbie going out and marketing themselves as a wedding photographer is about. I did say I would be shooting my brother's wedding as a second photographer. There’s nothing wrong with that. Seefutlung, I absolutely agree that in most cases if you put an amateurs work next to a pros work you're going to tell a big difference. I'm not refuting that. That's why I'm IN TRAINING to be photographer. Some people don't even do that. I actually believe that I take good pictures but I have a lot to learn before I feel right accepting pro rates. At least I recognize that. I also don't see anything wrong with charging something. And when people seek me out.... not even based on any advertisement but based on other work they've seen... It makes me feel comfortable enough to except something. A lady loves my work, wants me to come to her daughter’s birthday party for 3 hours, dressed up and have a photo booth for the kids and their parents. This is a co-worker of my husbands... And I should do that for free right? Haaa haa ummm no. The lady's budget is $200 including the prints that she wants. Any pros want to work for that amount for 3 hours with screaming children? I will be there 3 hours away from my family, and have to drive to her home, etc...

Anyway, producing great pictures is wonderful... but that's not the only important thing. Friendly attitude (which I question some of the people who've I've communicated on here), being on-time, good customer service skills, delivering the services or prints in a timely manner.... It's all important. And just as I've heard horror stories about customers getting a horrible product from an amateur, I've heard just as many about people hiring a pro photographer for a couple thousand dollars and getting their photos a year later or the photographer being a snob, or rude, or late to the job, or nickeling and diming for every little thing. Photos may be great but other things are important too. And I won't take anyone seriously who’s bashing a newbie on not knowing how to operate every single setting on their camera when they're actively taking the initiative to be trained to deliver even better product... I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Village Idiot]

I actually believe that I take good pictures but I have a lot to learn before I feel right accepting pro rates.

#1) Don't pay models. TFCD or they pay you.

#2) Learn to light. You can't adequately shoot models when you don't know how to light (be it natural or artificial). You can get lucky but you don't want to base pleasing a client on being lucky.

 

[Seefutlung]

I'm just wondering what all the talk about a newbie going out and marketing themselves as a wedding photographer is about. I did say I would be shooting my brother's wedding as a second photographer. There’s nothing wrong with that. Seefutlung, I absolutely agree that in most cases if you put an amateurs work next to a pros work you're going to tell a big difference. I'm not refuting that. That's why I'm IN TRAINING to be photographer. Some people don't even do that. I actually believe that I take good pictures but I have a lot to learn before I feel right accepting pro rates. At least I recognize that. I also don't see anything wrong with charging something. And when people seek me out.... not even based on any advertisement but based on other work they've seen... It makes me feel comfortable enough to except something. A lady loves my work, wants me to come to her daughter’s birthday party for 3 hours, dressed up and have a photo booth for the kids and their parents. This is a co-worker of my husbands... And I should do that for free right? Haaa haa ummm no. The lady's budget is $200 including the prints that she wants. Any pros want to work for that amount for 3 hours with screaming children? I will be there 3 hours away from my family, and have to drive to her home, etc...

Anyway, producing great pictures is wonderful... but that's not the only important thing. Friendly attitude (which I question some of the people who've I've communicated on here), being on-time, good customer service skills, delivering the services or prints in a timely manner.... It's all important. And just as I've heard horror stories about customers getting a horrible product from an amateur, I've heard just as many about people hiring a pro photographer for a couple thousand dollars and getting their photos a year later or the photographer being a snob, or rude, or late to the job, or nickeling and diming for every little thing. Photos may be great but other things are important too. And I won't take anyone seriously who’s bashing a newbie on not knowing how to operate every single setting on their camera when they're actively taking the initiative to be trained to deliver even better product... I guess we'll agree to disagree.

My hang-up is performing a disservice ... getting paid for a level which you are not delivering.

If the customer is fully aware of the level of product ... then okay ... full disclosure ... this is who I am ... this is what I can deliver ... I just think it is wrong to peddle oneself as capable of delivering a level of skill and expertise which they are not capable of attaining ... thereby decieving the customer into thinking they are getting a Mercedes when the photog is only capable of delivering a Ford. (Not that a Ford is all that bad if that is what you are expecting.)

Quite often, the event can never be duplicated ... memories and photographs can last forever.