Roger

[Braineack]

for clarity, the gesture was in response to the "my opinion is irrelevant" comment. I could have gone with :eyesrolling:

But reading it again, i do believe black_square said it quite diplomatically and i may have taken more offense than should.

 

[Designer]

I'm looking at the image on my phone and can't see the green cast you're talking about, either - so it may in fact have more to do with your end.

I see the green cast as well.

I also see the off-balance framing and un-naturally bright irises.

If all that translates to the photographer's "personal style", then no more needs be said.

However, if some poster wants to claim it is somehow "classic", then we have an issue.

 

[Peeb]

I see the hue as a bit "off" but I think it is fantastic. I really like it. If you pull the green/magenta slider away from the green, you would get more 'accurate' - but less interesting.

I'm not nuanced to see anything overly cooked about the eyes, but if they are- they still look fine to me.

I apprecciated Braineack's initial candid analysis- he clearly gave it some careful thought, and although I see technical merit in his concerns, I've re-examined the image and none of them bother me, personally. I'm not saying Braineack was wrong (he was quite observant, actually), I just don't think that Black-square was wrong either.

My two cents: Great shot!

PS- and what a great community we have here at TPF!

 

[terri]

However, if some poster wants to claim it is somehow "classic", then we have an issue.

See, I find "issue" way too strong a word for what's being discussed. A counter point, another opinion, sure (and who cares?), but "issue" is what makes people's hackles stir and goes beyond being useful.

But reading it again, i do believe black_square said it quite diplomatically and i may have taken more offense than should.

Such a nice boy.

 

[smoke665]

I read this then printed it, so that I can keep it handy. Guidelines for the Critic and the person being Criticized Constructive Criticism some good advice for both.

 

[Designer]

I read this then printed it, so that I can keep it handy. Guidelines for the Critic and the person being Criticized Constructive Criticism some good advice for both.

I appreciate that you took the time to find and post that site, but would it be more relevant to this thread if it had more to do with critiquing photographs rather than behaviors?

There have been threads on that topic on here before, so if anyone would happen somehow to be interested in reading further, one could, with one or two well-chosen keywords find one or more of those threads.

 

[Peeb]

I read this then printed it, so that I can keep it handy. Guidelines for the Critic and the person being Criticized Constructive Criticism some good advice for both.

I appreciate that you took the time to find and post that site, but would it be more relevant to this thread if it had more to do with critiquing photographs rather than behaviors?

There have been threads on that topic on here before, so if anyone would happen somehow to be interested in reading further, one could, with one or two well-chosen keywords find one or more of those threads.

New thread about constructive criticism? Great idea!
The Art of Photographic Critique (a.k.a. constructive criticism)

 

[Black_Square]

Right here's a little response to help clarify my post processing technique and general approach.

The majority of my portrait work is inspired by various classical painters - principally Theodore Gericault, although i appreciate the work of other artists from the period as well. I draw inspiration from these painters and i challenge myself to create a painterly aesthetic to my work. I do not try to recreate classical paintings, as given the different medium such an exercise would be futile. I simply try and blur the lines between a painting and a photo, although the latter will ultimate be apparent. Without reverting to crude photoshop filters this exercise is difficult to achieve, and one that i do not proclaim to have mastered, or indeed had success with - i just share the results.

My portraits are subject to extensive post processing, with one element of my workflow focusing on colour toning. In some instance the final image will be a significant shift from the original, other times to a lesser extent. It ultimately depends upon what I consider is appropriate. I do not claim to create an authentic photographic representation of the subject, instead a re-rendering in a form that i consider is aesthetically pleasing.

In this thread I have had multiple people questioning and have been ultimately critical of an alleged green colour cast. If there is a colour cast, then it is there because I have deliberately created it, so these people are just stating the obvious. If you were viewing a black and white image, would you comment along the lines of 'aha - that image has been deliberately de-saturated' - probably not.

For those who are interested in the colour toning of the image, it is as follows:

The lower part of the image is green, the face which is the main focus of the image is brown/gold and the background blue/brown/gold. So to clarify, there is no green colour cast. If you want to play around with the colour picker as others have to prove otherwise then feel free to, although i'd suggest using the colour histogram for a better idea of overall colour composition. If you do the latter you will see that the overall tone is yellow. However, this is all irrelevant - the tone of the image is what it is and is of my making.

One individual has used the word 'zombie' when describing this image, and also suggested that I am an arrogant wanker (posts have been deleted - you know who you are). People are entitled to their opinions, even when they are as crass as this. Ultimately, if you like the image, then great. If you don't, then that's okay too. At the end of the day you can't please everyone, so I just try and make images that I am satisfied with, something that I am yet to do.

Thanks,

 

[jcdeboever]

Right here's a little response to help clarify my post processing technique and general approach.

The majority of my portrait work is inspired by various classical painters - principally Theodore Gericault, although i appreciate the work of other artists from the period as well. I draw inspiration from these painters and i challenge myself to create a painterly aesthetic to my work. I do not try to recreate classical paintings, as given the different medium such an exercise would be futile. I simply try and blur the lines between a painting and a photo, although the latter will ultimate be apparent. Without reverting to crude photoshop filters this exercise is difficult to achieve, and one that i do not proclaim to have mastered, or indeed had success with - i just share the results.

My portraits are subject to extensive post processing, with one element of my workflow focusing on colour toning. In some instance the final image will be a significant shift from the original, other times to a lesser extent. It ultimately depends upon what I consider is appropriate. I do not claim to create an authentic photographic representation of the subject, instead a re-rendering in a form that i consider is aesthetically pleasing.

In this thread I have had multiple people questioning and have been ultimately critical of an alleged green colour cast. If there is a colour cast, then it is there because I have deliberately created it, so these people are just stating the obvious. If you were viewing a black and white image, would you comment along the lines of 'aha - that image has been deliberately de-saturated' - probably not.

For those who are interested in the colour toning of the image, it is as follows:

The lower part of the image is green, the face which is the main focus of the image is brown/gold and the background blue/brown/gold. So to clarify, there is no green colour cast. If you want to play around with the colour picker as others have to prove otherwise then feel free to, although i'd suggest using the colour histogram for a better idea of overall colour composition. If you do the latter you will see that the overall tone is yellow. However, this is all irrelevant - the tone of the image is what it is and is of my making.

One individual has used the word 'zombie' when describing this image, and also suggested that I am an arrogant wanker (posts have been deleted - you know who you are). People are entitled to their opinions, even when they are as crass as this. Ultimately, if you like the image, then great. If you don't, then that's okay too. At the end of the day you can't please everyone, so I just try and make images that I am satisfied with, something that I am yet to do.

Thanks,

I had a strong inkling that you were inspired by the pioneer of the romantic movement, Gericault. I almost mentioned him but some of the comments made me question doing so. I am so thrilled that I noticed this and then you mentioned him.

I was a self taught artist back in the day and he was one of great interest to me when I was a lad. My first mentor was a professional copy artist and he actually laid out his pallet for me, explaining / teaching how to rob color pallets. He was very helpful and took a liking to me, we are still friends to this day. He is in his 80's.

He was very encouraging for me to put away the brushes and pic up a camera as I had great trepidation in doing so. Painting was no longer fun for me, reasons unknown. He said the danger in all of the displeasure was not to create. So his guidance into photography seemed logical at the time and more clear today.

 

[Black_Square]

Your intuition proved right! I just love gericault's back story, especially with portraits. All very macabre, visiting asylums, hospitals etc, a darkness that he captured so exquisitely in his paintings.

I do intend to take up painting, but I'm conscious that I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Although my photoshop work is naturally taking me in that direction.

Thanks

 

[DanOstergren]

I've found that most of the really good artists on TPF have developed a predominant "style", be it tone, lighting, pose, familiarity whatever. I'm thankful that folks like @Black_Square put their work up for review, as the knowledge the neophytes like myself can gain is huge.

These artists always have an ever changing style. Their lighting changes, as well as their toning, posing, etc. I attribute a lot of my improvement to the feedback that I was at times way too stubborn to listen to on this forum. Clearly @Braineack isn't trolling or being abusive and is actually taking the time to give valuable constructive feedback (in comparison to members who are complete jackasses about the way they give critique). You would think that might be seen as a good thing considering most comments on this site are just compliments that don't really help anyone. If we see something to be critical of, it's valuable for more than just the artist who created to piece to speak up about it rather than not, or just saying good job. Calling someone's conductive feedback "irrelevant" seems a bit unnecessary. Black _ Square gave me a critique on the orange skin color in my most recent thread, yet I would never respond by saying his opinion was irrelevant. In fact I was open to changing it, and I think he should be too. The skin looks way too orange in this photo to me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app

 

[smoke665]

, it's valuable for more than just the artist who created to piece to speak up about it rather than not, or just saying good job

So true. I'm obviously not even in the same league as you guys, but I post a lot of my shots so that I can get feedback to learn. There have been occasions where I've received critical comments from someone only to find the poster who made those comments doing the same thing. For me I sometimes find it easier to "know" what to do then to do it in practice. That's why I think it's important for those at all skill levels to post their work as it adds credence to their comments, and establishes a benchmark for further learning by those of us less skilled.

 

[Black_Square]

I've found that most of the really good artists on TPF have developed a predominant "style", be it tone, lighting, pose, familiarity whatever. I'm thankful that folks like @Black_Square put their work up for review, as the knowledge the neophytes like myself can gain is huge.

These artists always have an ever changing style. Their lighting changes, as well as their toning, posing, etc. I attribute a lot of my improvement to the feedback that I was at times way too stubborn to listen to on this forum. Clearly @Braineack isn't trolling or being abusive and is actually taking the time to give valuable constructive feedback (in comparison to members who are complete jackasses about the way they give critique). You would think that might be seen as a good thing considering most comments on this site are just compliments that don't really help anyone. If we see something to be critical of, it's valuable for more than just the artist who created to piece to speak up about it rather than not, or just saying good job. Calling someone's conductive feedback "irrelevant" seems a bit unnecessary. Black _ Square gave me a critique on the orange skin color in my most recent thread, yet I would never respond by saying his opinion was irrelevant. In fact I was open to changing it, and I think he should be too. The skin looks way too orange in this photo to me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app

As I previously explained, I deliberately colour toned this image to look the way it did. It was not my intention to create an accurate representation of the subject - I very rarely do. Braineack went to great lengths (colour picker screen shot ffs) to demonstrate some apparent colour cast. My response is that going to those extremes is irrelevant, given that i am confirming that there is a delibrate colour cast, which I created in Photoshop. @Braineack in subsequent posts compared my image to a 'zombie' and also called me a wanker. These comments have since been deleted so you may not have seen them. That to my mind is being abusive, plain and simple and when you're forced to revert to that language you have lost the debate and more importantly credibility.

When I commented on the orange tones on your photo, that was in the context of you wanting to create an authentic portrait - to my eye it didn't appear authentic, thus my comment. Given that I am not trying to create an authentic portrait, the fact that you don't like the orange tones in my image (I'm glad you said orange and not green!) is duly noted, but ultimately irrelevant to me as it is ultimately a subjective issue. I like the orange tones, you don't like the orange tones - that's all there is to it. I could very easilly correct the orange/green whatever tone it is, to make it more appealing to the person who critiqued the colour, but then I would be creating an image for them, and not me.

I really dont mind people critiquing my images - as I have said before, you cant please everybody, only try and please yourself.

 

[DanOstergren]

I've found that most of the really good artists on TPF have developed a predominant "style", be it tone, lighting, pose, familiarity whatever. I'm thankful that folks like @Black_Square put their work up for review, as the knowledge the neophytes like myself can gain is huge.

These artists always have an ever changing style. Their lighting changes, as well as their toning, posing, etc. I attribute a lot of my improvement to the feedback that I was at times way too stubborn to listen to on this forum. Clearly @Braineack isn't trolling or being abusive and is actually taking the time to give valuable constructive feedback (in comparison to members who are complete jackasses about the way they give critique). You would think that might be seen as a good thing considering most comments on this site are just compliments that don't really help anyone. If we see something to be critical of, it's valuable for more than just the artist who created to piece to speak up about it rather than not, or just saying good job. Calling someone's conductive feedback "irrelevant" seems a bit unnecessary. Black _ Square gave me a critique on the orange skin color in my most recent thread, yet I would never respond by saying his opinion was irrelevant. In fact I was open to changing it, and I think he should be too. The skin looks way too orange in this photo to me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app

As I previously explained, I deliberately colour toned this image to look the way it did. It was not my intention to create an accurate representation of the subject - I very rarely do. Braineack went to great lengths (colour picker screen shot ffs) to demonstrate some apparent colour cast. My response is that going to those extremes is irrelevant, given that i am confirming that there is a delibrate colour cast, which I created in Photoshop. @Braineack in subsequent posts compared my image to a 'zombie' and also called me a wanker. These comments have since been deleted so you may not have seen them. That to my mind is being abusive, plain and simple and when you're forced to revert to that language you have lost the debate and more importantly credibility.

When I commented on the orange tones on your photo, that was in the context of you wanting to create an authentic portrait - to my eye it didn't appear authentic, thus my comment. Given that I am not trying to create an authentic portrait, the fact that you don't like the orange tones in my image (I'm glad you said orange and not green!) is duly noted, but ultimately irrelevant to me as it is ultimately a subjective issue. I like the orange tones, you don't like the orange tones - that's all there is to it. I could very easilly correct the orange/green whatever tone it is, to make it more appealing to the person who critiqued the colour, but then I would be creating an image for them, and not me.

I really dont mind people critiquing my images - as I have said before, you cant please everybody, only try and please yourself.

Right, but if you don't mind it then why would you reply by telling them their opinion is irrelevant? That basically says the opposite of that notion, and is incredibly dismissive of the fact that someone took the time to give you valuable feedback. A few years ago braineack made the exact same zombie critique on one of my best portraits. At first I refused to listen because I was so proud of the portrait, and was very rudely dismissive of his feedback (and probably deserved to be called a wanker for it). Later on down the road I took his advice and re edited the shot before entering it into a state wide competition and won four awards including best portrait and presidents choice. Im grateful for his feedback even though my pride wouldn't let me hear it at the time because I thought my artistic eye was better tuned than his critical eye. Im not saying we have to change every aspect of our work to please others, but allowing their opinions to carry some weight can really help you improve because you're no God with a camera, and neither are we. You may be too blind to your own work in order to see points that need improvement, and I'm only saying this from personal experience of being too arrogant to hear what others are saying.

Also I agree that there is no good reason for name calling in this forum, on any occasion, but don't forget that just the other week you were calling someone else here an idiot for misunderstanding you.
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[Black_Square]

, it's valuable for more than just the artist who created to piece to speak up about it rather than not, or just saying good job

So true. I'm obviously not even in the same league as you guys, but I post a lot of my shots so that I can get feedback to learn. There have been occasions where I've received critical comments from someone only to find the poster who made those comments doing the same thing. For me I sometimes find it easier to "know" what to do then to do it in practice. That's why I think it's important for those at all skill levels to post their work as it adds credence to their comments, and establishes a benchmark for further learning by those of us less skilled.

@smoke665 when shooting portraits, I always think that the best way to approach the shot is to have a clear idea as to how you want the finished image to look. Then beforehand you can use what you'know' to inform your shoot, or alternatively fill the blanks by asking others. Easier said than done though!