socialized medicine

[Crazydad]

You cannot please all of the people all of the time. Some choices won't appeal to you and some others won't appeal to me. Get over it. Just like me, I'm sure you deal with that everyday about some other subjects. That's life in a society.

You are absolutely correct.

Who will decide? Our elected representatives. You vote, don't you? Well, if you don't like what they do, you can always try and vote them out. You also have the choice of running for office yourself. And then you could be one of those making the decision.

An elected official deciding what medical treatment I can and cannot have. Could anything be more frightening?

And yes I do vote and try to get others who are not happy with the current congress to vote them out (regardless of party). I am firmly against career policticians

My biggest problem with our current system is that compared to the rest of the western world, we have a very unhealthy population while we have some of the best medical technology. Definitely something wrong with that picture. Some of it is lifestyle but some of it is due to health insurance system. Plenty of people here do nothing in terms of preventative care or minor care because they don't want to pay their co-pay. Well, when a problem is left unattended it usually only gets worse and when we finally get around to do something about it it either cost a fortune or there's nothing to do.

I would submit it is mostly about lifestyle. As a whole, we eat like crap and get little to no exercise. Plus, as you said "Plenty of people here do nothing in terms of preventative care or minor care because they don't want to pay their co-pay." If they do nothing and don't go see a doctor because they don't want to, why should the rest of us pay for their bad choices? What happened to the concept taking reponsibility for the consequences of our own actions?

I know quite a few people between the ages of 30 and 40 who don't have a single tooth of their own in their mouth. They didn't take care of their teeth, never saw a dentist (it costs money) and all of a sudden they have major problems. It's going to cost too much so they get everything pulled out and get dentures. Dentures at 30?

I decided not to take of my house or my car. The government needs to take money from you and get my house and car fixed. You may say it is different because it is their teeth. But once again, if you are irresponsible, why should the rest of the population have money forcibly taken from them to fix your mistakes?

But, let's be honest, our big corporation are doing everything they can to make sure we don't spend our money wisely.

Did any corporation have a gun to your head forcing you to get a more expensive car? Or put a gun to your head and force you to live beyond your means? (not saying you are, but you know what I mean) No, they didn't. people voluntarily make those choices and then get upset when it comes crashing down. One thing no one likes to think about is that when you live ina free society, that also means you have the freedom to fail and fall on you face. The federal government is the only entity that can force you to give them your money. Anyone else tries it and it is called robbery or extortion.

Also, once again I ask anyone to show me where in the constitution it says the federal government has the power to do this. Or should we just chunk the constitution and let the feds decide everything?

 

[musicaleCA]

I would submit it is mostly about lifestyle. As a whole, we eat like crap and get little to no exercise. Plus, as you said "Plenty of people here do nothing in terms of preventative care or minor care because they don't want to pay their co-pay." If they do nothing and don't go see a doctor because they don't want to, why should the rest of us pay for their bad choices? What happened to the concept taking reponsibility for the consequences of our own actions?

Thing is, you do pay for it. It's a more insidious way of paying for it, but you do, dearly. Those people who are sick (or worse, dead) because they didn't pay for preventative care take resources from the health care system anyway and stress the economy by going heavily into debt. Sometimes it's a debt they won't be able to pay-off, which may mean they need to spend much more of their income on covering that debt, which in turn is less money spent on consumer goods which would aid in the economy's growth. It's like...self-defeating capitalism.

And it's also the likely major contributing factor as to why the US federal government has to spend a large percentage of the GDP on health care than other Western countries with socialized health care systems.

Oh, and Sach, it probably cost you more here because nothing was subsidized. You don't honestly think that Canadian tax payers are going to cover US citizen's health care, right? Then you'd all be coming up here for cheapie surgeries. :lmao:

 

[Crazydad]

Sometimes it's a debt they won't be able to pay-off, which may mean they need to spend much more of their income on covering that debt, which in turn is less money spent on consumer goods which would aid in the economy's growth.

So it would be better for our economy for the federal government to incur at least $1 TRILLION in more debt? Wouldn't the economy be better off if everyone paid fewer taxes and therefore had more to spend on consummables?

While I agree that something needs to be done, I do not think it is the federal governments role to do it. Our system of government is based (or supposed to be based) on the constitution and the current healthcare proposal is clearly beyond the federal governments constitutionally given powers.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I would submit it is mostly about lifestyle. As a whole, we eat like crap and get little to no exercise. Plus, as you said "Plenty of people here do nothing in terms of preventative care or minor care because they don't want to pay their co-pay." If they do nothing and don't go see a doctor because they don't want to, why should the rest of us pay for their bad choices? What happened to the concept taking reponsibility for the consequences of our own actions?

Thing is, you do pay for it. It's a more insidious way of paying for it, but you do, dearly. Those people who are sick (or worse, dead) because they didn't pay for preventative care take resources from the health care system anyway and stress the economy by going heavily into debt. Sometimes it's a debt they won't be able to pay-off, which may mean they need to spend much more of their income on covering that debt, which in turn is less money spent on consumer goods which would aid in the economy's growth. It's like...self-defeating capitalism.

And it's also the likely major contributing factor as to why the US federal government has to spend a large percentage of the GDP on health care than other Western countries with socialized health care systems.

:thumbup:

Of all developed nations, we spend the most on health care and we get the least results. What else can I say.

I will repeat though, if you are really interested in what other countries are doing, watch this documentary: "Frontline: Sick around the World" available from Netflix. Most probably not from your local video rental store.


And since I forgot to answer O|||||||O about why I like the Taiwanese system best earlier, here goes:
Taiwan Takes Fast Track to Universal Health Care : NPR

I know it comes from our socialist radio but my further research showed the statements made in the interview to be true.

 

[musicaleCA]

Sometimes it's a debt they won't be able to pay-off, which may mean they need to spend much more of their income on covering that debt, which in turn is less money spent on consumer goods which would aid in the economy's growth.

So it would be better for our economy for the federal government to incur at least $1 TRILLION in more debt? Wouldn't the economy be better off if everyone paid fewer taxes and therefore had more to spend on consummables?

While I agree that something needs to be done, I do not think it is the federal governments role to do it. Our system of government is based (or supposed to be based) on the constitution and the current healthcare proposal is clearly beyond the federal governments constitutionally given powers.

No no, I'm saying that it's better if the federal/provincial/state government takes some money from everyone first, and then pays for those preventative measures. If it's bought and paid for, few people are going to say no to a treatment that'll prevent something worse down the line.

We've noted that people tend not to be entirely responsible with their spending. Taking that choice out of our hands and saying "Pay taxes, and you're getting your health care, dang it" is a pretty good alternative. We can legislate what gets covered (which is a lot), which is the rough equivalent of sitting together and hashing out things rationally (though I will admit that you have every reason not to trust your current statesmen). Tack on investigative journalism (another thing sorrowly lacking in US society), and you've got the media watching where that money's going like a hawk. Do anything really stupid and there's hell to pay.

(Personal opinions ahead.) And probably the best part is that the healthy, productive members of society are indirectly paying for those who are sick. Being totally honest, most people aren't sick because of something that's their fault. And even if it is (a work accident, a kid snorted something stupid, whatever), well, those people should still be given a chance. Particularly the drug addicts, homeless, prostitutes, and what-have-you. The only way they'll ever become productive members of society again is if they're given the chance to, and they need to start by being healthy and fit to give it a shot. This is where socialism becomes as much about compassion as it is about having a stable society.

 

[Crazydad]

No no, I'm saying that it's better if the federal/provincial/state government takes some money from everyone first, and then pays for those preventative measures. If it's bought and paid for, few people are going to say no to a treatment that'll prevent something worse down the line.

Take it up front or on the back end, the feds are still taking it.

We've noted that people tend not to be entirely responsible with their spending. Taking that choice out of our hands and saying "Pay taxes, and you're getting your health care, dang it" is a pretty good alternative. We can legislate what gets covered (which is a lot), which is the rough equivalent of sitting together and hashing out things rationally (though I will admit that you have every reason not to trust your current statesmen). Tack on investigative journalism (another thing sorrowly lacking in US society), and you've got the media watching where that money's going like a hawk. Do anything really stupid and there's hell to pay.

I think here is where I have the biggest fears. It just seems that more and more people here are wanting to have the government take care of things so they don't have to. There are too many people taking advantage of the system and the powers that be in DC have no interest in getting people off of the government teet.

I don't trust anyone in DC and you are absolutely right about the state of journalism here, very sad......

(Personal opinions ahead.) And probably the best part is that the healthy, productive members of society are indirectly paying for those who are sick. Being totally honest, most people aren't sick because of something that's their fault. And even if it is (a work accident, a kid snorted something stupid, whatever), well, those people should still be given a chance. Particularly the drug addicts, homeless, prostitutes, and what-have-you. The only way they'll ever become productive members of society again is if they're given the chance to, and they need to start by being healthy and fit to give it a shot. This is where socialism becomes as much about compassion as it is about having a stable society.

Absolutely true and I do think more needs to be done to help those that want the help. But I think the local, private sector (such as churches, Salvation Army, etc.) can and do a much better job at such things. The federal government is notoriously inefficeint, wasteful, and so full of corruption that I just think it would be a mistake to entrust it all to them. The way the US was set up was to have all things like this handled at the state and local level, where it is much more effective.

 

[ocular]

Doctors in a social health care system have less regard for their job. But then again your aren't in America making 300-400K a year

I don't think that's true at all. You can't expect every doctor to be a good doctor. Most doctors I know make $250 to $500 k a year, they just don't earn six figure salaries.

Oh and the reason we have people that want these types programs, is due to the fact we live in a selfish greedy society that feels they deserve something they do not. It is the peoples greed selfishness and ignorance that pushed us into the recession we are in. Sure the Bank should not have given loans that the people could not afford but then again.... the people knew they could not afford the loan so it is their own responsiblity to read the contract before signing it

I was waiting for an inevitable comment like this. Yes let's blame the people taking out the sub prime and predatory loans.

Some people just don't get it. The reason we're having this financial crisis is because of greedy banks making a quick profit. Predatory and sub prime loans. Let me explain sub prime loans. Sub prime loans are targeted at people with limited debt experience, excessive debt, a history of missed payments, failures to pay debts, and recorded bankruptcies. Ok so the people aren't paying down on the house they're just paying the interest for about 5-10 years, so if they can't pay then the bank makes a profit and keeps the house... Now for predatory loans. Predatory loans are much like credit card loans, this is the lowest of the low for lenders. They charge 20% - 40% on mortgages, and of course they can't keep on paying so they loose the house and once again the lender makes a profit and keeps the house. So we were left with all these empty houses with no one to buy them. This is why our economies are **** .

 

[Sachphotography]

Doctors in a social health care system have less regard for their job. But then again your aren't in America making 300-400K a year

I don't think that's true at all. You can't expect every doctor to be a good doctor. Most doctors I know make $250 to $500 k a year, they just don't earn six figure salaries.

Oh and the reason we have people that want these types programs, is due to the fact we live in a selfish greedy society that feels they deserve something they do not. It is the peoples greed selfishness and ignorance that pushed us into the recession we are in. Sure the Bank should not have given loans that the people could not afford but then again.... the people knew they could not afford the loan so it is their own responsiblity to read the contract before signing it

I was waiting for an inevitable comment like this. Yes let's blame the people taking out the sub prime and predatory loans.

Some people just don't get it. The reason we're having this financial crisis is because of greedy banks making a quick profit. Predatory and sub prime loans. Let me explain sub prime loans. Sub prime loans are targeted at people with limited debt experience, excessive debt, a history of missed payments, failures to pay debts, and recorded bankruptcies. Ok so the people aren't paying down on the house they're just paying the interest for about 5-10 years, so if they can't pay then the bank makes a profit and keeps the house... Now for predatory loans. Predatory loans are much like credit card loans, this is the lowest of the low for lenders. They charge 20% - 40% on mortgages, and of course they can't keep on paying so they loose the house and once again the lender makes a profit and keeps the house. So we were left with all these empty houses with no one to buy them. This is why our economies are **** .

While that is all true, it is just as much the person buying the houses responsibility to ensure that they can afford the house.
Paying your rent bills ans grocery money and and leaving $40
left over is not enough. While there is error on the part of the bank it is just as much the people fault, they just do not want to take responsibility for their actions. A growing trend in the world!!!

 

[Dmitri]

 

[c.cloudwalker]

:thumbup:


There's black helicopters overhead... I'm thinking strange thoughts.




Those who want Socialism should go away from America. if everything elsewhere is so good..... THEN GO THERE!!!!!!

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy and everyone as the right to want whatever they want. Right now, you are the one who doesn't seem happy so, why don't YOU leave?

 

[mishele]

Dmitri ..............love it...lol

 

[ottor]

I was going to retire last August - had all plans in place, and found some 'decent' health insurance for about $500/month ... lots, .. but manageable.. In June I got Prostate Cancer. - Had the "Cryo-Surgery", and since have been deemed 100% cured !! - The first problem I had was the denial of the entire $28,000 surgery bill - they claimed it was "Investagatory",and "Experimental" Surgery, so it wasnt' approved.. (This surgery was being performed since the early 90's, and is approved by Medicare) - funny thing is that the Dr. got prior approval from them before the surgery. I had to fight and get an attorney to threaten a lawsuit before they'd give in, and then cover me.... The second problem was that now that I've been deemed "100% cured" (2 different Dr's words, not mine).. the Insurance companies have jumped on this one, and the cheapest after retirement insurance I can find is around $1200/month - That's another house payment !! I have obtained 8 or 9 premium quotes at this average amount, and can't reason with them ... they're doing this ........ because they can !! Nobody has ever had the guts to put the stops on this type of robbery, perhaps ..... just perhaps, this administration can..

Hence, ... I'm still working, and unless someone puts the reins on these insurance crooks, I'll be working ( just for the insurance ) for the next 3 years.. Retirement plans down the toilet..

Socialized medicine isn't looking too bad right now... There's a stigma around that 'phraze', but in theory, it's sounding pretty good..

You can begin hammering me now ...... I've taken on Blue Cross, I can take it on a forum ....

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I was going to retire last August - had all plans in place, and found some 'decent' health insurance for about $500/month ... lots, .. but manageable.. In June I got Prostate Cancer. - Had the "Cryo-Surgery", and since have been deemed 100% cured !! - The first problem I had was the denial of the entire $28,000 surgery bill - they claimed it was "Investagatory",and "Experimental" Surgery, so it wasnt' approved.. (This surgery was being performed since the early 90's, and is approved by Medicare) - funny thing is that the Dr. got prior approval from them before the surgery. I had to fight and get an attorney to threaten a lawsuit before they'd give in, and then cover me.... The second problem was that now that I've been deemed "100% cured" (2 different Dr's words, not mine).. the Insurance companies have jumped on this one, and the cheapest after retirement insurance I can find is around $1200/month - That's another house payment !! I have obtained 8 or 9 premium quotes at this average amount, and can't reason with them ... they're doing this ........ because they can !! Nobody has ever had the guts to put the stops on this type of robbery, perhaps ..... just perhaps, this administration can..

Hence, ... I'm still working, and unless someone puts the reins on these insurance crooks, I'll be working ( just for the insurance ) for the next 3 years.. Retirement plans down the toilet..

Socialized medicine isn't looking too bad right now... There's a stigma around that 'phraze', but in theory, it's sounding pretty good..

You can begin hammering me now ...... I've taken on Blue Cross, I can take it on a forum ....

:thumbup:


That's exactly why that phrase is being use. McCarthy may be dead but his spirit is not. Red Scare days are here again. :lmao:

 

[ottor]

No Kidding !!!! I can't believe the irrational paranoia running rampant these days !! I actually had 2 different people tell me (1) - O'bama's going to take all of our old cars away !! Yup, anything over 20 years old is going to be confiscated!! and (2) Did ya year ... O'bama's gonna take our guns away from us !!!

This crap is actually coming from some reasonably intelligent people .. what the hell's happened ?? These folks are acting like they're deprived of any normal mental clarity !! I dont' know if what he's doing these days is going to work, or not ..... but I'm willing to give him a chance and see for myself if we're better off after all these changes .. All I know is that someone has to do something about the mess that the previous administrations have gotton us into, and mixed into all these changes is HealthCare reform ... THAT's the one I'm watching ...

 

[mishele]

I was going to retire last August - had all plans in place, and found some 'decent' health insurance for about $500/month ... lots, .. but manageable.. In June I got Prostate Cancer. - Had the "Cryo-Surgery", and since have been deemed 100% cured !! - The first problem I had was the denial of the entire $28,000 surgery bill - they claimed it was "Investagatory",and "Experimental" Surgery, so it wasnt' approved.. (This surgery was being performed since the early 90's, and is approved by Medicare) - funny thing is that the Dr. got prior approval from them before the surgery. I had to fight and get an attorney to threaten a lawsuit before they'd give in, and then cover me.... The second problem was that now that I've been deemed "100% cured" (2 different Dr's words, not mine).. the Insurance companies have jumped on this one, and the cheapest after retirement insurance I can find is around $1200/month - That's another house payment !! I have obtained 8 or 9 premium quotes at this average amount, and can't reason with them ... they're doing this ........ because they can !! Nobody has ever had the guts to put the stops on this type of robbery, perhaps ..... just perhaps, this administration can..

Hence, ... I'm still working, and unless someone puts the reins on these insurance crooks, I'll be working ( just for the insurance ) for the next 3 years.. Retirement plans down the toilet..

Socialized medicine isn't looking too bad right now... There's a stigma around that 'phraze', but in theory, it's sounding pretty good..

You can begin hammering me now ...... I've taken on Blue Cross, I can take it on a forum ....

I m glad to hear your well on your way to a full recovery!! I m also saddened to hear what you had to go through. I dont know how anyone can be proud of our health care system after hearing that story. Here is someone that prolly paid his whole life for health care the way your supposed to and in his moment of need was denied a life saving service. I m not saying I have an answer but I am saying that we have a flawed system. What other choices have been put on the table? Is there a better way? Then please do share it. I m not saying that in a nasty way, I just want to know what our options are.