SOORC Challenge!

[Ysarex]

Fair enough. When I bring an image into lightroom/CS I'm always doing more than just WB and basic adjustments.

I guess when I say SOOC I mean no manipulation or extensive post production with layers, etc.

OK, but what's manipulation? What if I bring a raw file into a raw converter so I can avoid the manipulation that the camera software forces on every JPEG it creates? In other words I want a photo with less manipulation so I do my own raw processing. For example let's say you have a Canon camera. You must select a Canon picture style -- this is no "off" option. You can chose from Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome. What's the difference between Neutral and Faithful? Is there an option for not manipulated? Those are all manipulated interpretations -- you have to chose one. Nikon cameras have different manipulations etc. etc..

Right now I'm using a Fuji camera. Fuji is and was first a film manufacturer. So all Fuji camera's come with Fuji film simulations. I can't not use a Fuji film simulation when I process a photo in the camera. I have to chose from Provia, Velvia, Astia, Classic Chrome, ProNeg, and/or Monochrome.

So when I process a raw file it's in part because I want to avoid all that manipulation. I want a photo that's more "true" to what the camera captured.

Joe

Well yes those are basic manipulations. I'm talking about extensive manipulations that cannot be achieved without post production or pre-production planning.

Basic versus extensive -- where's the cut-off. If I had to tolerate those Fuji film simulations that Fuji's EXR processor forces on all my camera JPEGs I'd consider the camera unusable -- those forced image manipulations are too extensive for me.

Where's the line get drawn? The software in the cameras is getting more sophisticated. Does SOOC mean it's OK to use Canon's HTP or Fuji's DR expansion mode since they're built into the cameras now? Some cameras have HDR functions built into their image processors now -- that's extensive manipulation. What used to be only possible in post production 5 years ago is turning up in point and shoots right now. Is the line between basic and extensive always moving? If it is then what does it really mean?

Does SOOC for digital cameras mean you can't use any of the cool stuff that's on your cell phone if it shows up on your DSLR?

Joe

 

[jake337]

Fair enough. When I bring an image into lightroom/CS I'm always doing more than just WB and basic adjustments.

I guess when I say SOOC I mean no manipulation or extensive post production with layers, etc.

OK, but what's manipulation? What if I bring a raw file into a raw converter so I can avoid the manipulation that the camera software forces on every JPEG it creates? In other words I want a photo with less manipulation so I do my own raw processing. For example let's say you have a Canon camera. You must select a Canon picture style -- this is no "off" option. You can chose from Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome. What's the difference between Neutral and Faithful? Is there an option for not manipulated? Those are all manipulated interpretations -- you have to chose one. Nikon cameras have different manipulations etc. etc..

Right now I'm using a Fuji camera. Fuji is and was first a film manufacturer. So all Fuji camera's come with Fuji film simulations. I can't not use a Fuji film simulation when I process a photo in the camera. I have to chose from Provia, Velvia, Astia, Classic Chrome, ProNeg, and/or Monochrome.

So when I process a raw file it's in part because I want to avoid all that manipulation. I want a photo that's more "true" to what the camera captured.

Joe

Well yes those are basic manipulations. I'm talking about extensive manipulations that cannot be achieved without post production or pre-production planning.

Basic versus extensive -- where's the cut-off. If I had to tolerate those Fuji film simulations that Fuji's EXR processor forces on all my camera JPEGs I'd consider the camera unusable -- those forced image manipulations are too extensive for me.

Where's the line get drawn? The software in the cameras is getting more sophisticated. Does SOOC mean it's OK to use Canon's HTP or Fuji's DR expansion mode since they're built into the cameras now? Some cameras have HDR functions built into their image processors now -- that's extensive manipulation. What used to be only possible in post production 5 years ago is turning up in point and shoots right now. Is the line between basic and extensive always moving? If it is then what does it really mean?

Does SOOC for digital cameras mean you can't use any of the cool stuff that's on your cell phone if it shows up on your DSLR?

Joe

Honestly, I couldn't tell ya. I don't use those features and turn off all features that modify the file, DL lighting, etc. I usually use monochrome or neutral picture settings and that's it.

When I can do everything that is possible in CS6 or other high end programs within my camera I probably won't use a PC at all except when I need a large screen to edit with.

But again, to me, SOOC is creating an image with your camera without the use of secondary post production.

 

[Ysarex]

Fair enough. When I bring an image into lightroom/CS I'm always doing more than just WB and basic adjustments.

I guess when I say SOOC I mean no manipulation or extensive post production with layers, etc.

OK, but what's manipulation? What if I bring a raw file into a raw converter so I can avoid the manipulation that the camera software forces on every JPEG it creates? In other words I want a photo with less manipulation so I do my own raw processing. For example let's say you have a Canon camera. You must select a Canon picture style -- this is no "off" option. You can chose from Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Neutral, Faithful, and Monochrome. What's the difference between Neutral and Faithful? Is there an option for not manipulated? Those are all manipulated interpretations -- you have to chose one. Nikon cameras have different manipulations etc. etc..

Right now I'm using a Fuji camera. Fuji is and was first a film manufacturer. So all Fuji camera's come with Fuji film simulations. I can't not use a Fuji film simulation when I process a photo in the camera. I have to chose from Provia, Velvia, Astia, Classic Chrome, ProNeg, and/or Monochrome.

So when I process a raw file it's in part because I want to avoid all that manipulation. I want a photo that's more "true" to what the camera captured.

Joe

Well yes those are basic manipulations. I'm talking about extensive manipulations that cannot be achieved without post production or pre-production planning.

Basic versus extensive -- where's the cut-off. If I had to tolerate those Fuji film simulations that Fuji's EXR processor forces on all my camera JPEGs I'd consider the camera unusable -- those forced image manipulations are too extensive for me.

Where's the line get drawn? The software in the cameras is getting more sophisticated. Does SOOC mean it's OK to use Canon's HTP or Fuji's DR expansion mode since they're built into the cameras now? Some cameras have HDR functions built into their image processors now -- that's extensive manipulation. What used to be only possible in post production 5 years ago is turning up in point and shoots right now. Is the line between basic and extensive always moving? If it is then what does it really mean?

Does SOOC for digital cameras mean you can't use any of the cool stuff that's on your cell phone if it shows up on your DSLR?

Joe

Honestly, I couldn't tell ya. I don't use those features and turn off all features that modify the file, DL lighting, etc. I usually use monochrome or neutral picture settings and that's it.

When I can do everything that is possible in CS6 or other high end programs within my camera I probably won't use a PC at all except when I need a large screen to edit with.

But again, to me, SOOC is creating an image with your camera without the use of secondary post production.

But everything the camera does after the raw file is created is post production. Is there really a difference in substance -- what's actually done to the photo -- between all these terms; processing, post processing, editing, post production. They're all software processing. Is there a substance difference if they're done in a second by a computer in the camera or in a second by a computer on your desk the next day? If there are differences they're only in common usage. The real substance difference that exists in what can happen to a raw file as it's transformed into a finished photo is whether what's done is automated or under the control of the photographer.

"Post" means after. All digital cameras must run the sensor signal through an A/D converter and create a raw file. I see anything that happens after that as "after" -- "post." And I draw that line there for this reason: To that point you're really dealing with electronic hardware that leaves little to no room for interpretation of the image: raw file created. No interpretive manipulation has yet occurred. Beyond this point everything that occurs will be interpretive manipulation. By the time the final JPEG is created dozens of interpretive, manipulative decisions have been made. You're still in control to the extent that you must make selections that alter or shift the software algorithms behavior. You have to select a picture style so you chose "Landscape" on a Canon camera. There's no way that's not post production -- it's processing that happens after the image is captured.

So I would describe what your doing as creating an image with your camera in conjunction with the camera's interpretive post production software. I think it's fine to do that -- I'm not saying that's bad but I think it's important to acknowledge the role of the camera's processing software -- the raw file generated by your camera's sensor and A/D converter is getting post processed. You can't create a digital photo without software processing.

So you phrased it as "secondary" post production. Your use of the term "secondary" there then acknowledges the original post production done by the camera software, or does it? That's the issue for me. So often when I encounter people using the SOOC acronym they're claiming the photos aren't processed and it's often explicitly stated or implied that they didn't have to sit at a computer to "fix" them or "photoshop" them.

"Secondary" really connects for me. Avoiding anything secondary is why I make the effort to process raw files. I don't see myself engaged in secondary production at all but rather I'm going back to the point of image origination before any production took place so as to start from scratch and do as little as possible but do it right.

Joe

 

[bribrius]

sounds to me like joe is a closet purist...