Successful Criticism

[Hertz van Rental]

If we truly are at the point where we are evaluating HOW to critique, we are definitely in a bad place.

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.
Constant questioning of your own views, opinions and values is a good thing to do.
It's only a bad thing if you refuse to question your beliefs and opinions, or to defend them. You may think you know what you mean or that you understand what you are doing, but if you never actually examine yourself then you do not know if you are correct in your beliefs or not.
By questioning yourself then you are admitting the possibility that you could be mistaken, and doing this puts you in a receptive frame of mind that allows you to learn.
This is difficult I know because it appears as a threat to the ego. I have taught people who have argued themselves into the most ridiculous and untenable position for no other reason than they cannot admit they are wrong, seeing it as a sign of weakness. It is only a sign of stupidity.
Any politician will serve as an example.
If threads like this asking such questions leads even just one person to improve their understanding of things then it is worth it.


Abraxas: I don't respond much because others generally say pretty much what I would say - and my ego doesn't require me to say it anyway. Unlike some.
I tend to only respond when no-one else has.
I'm always available by PM to anyone - and that is the only way anyone will ever get a picture crit out of me :mrgreen:

 

[sabbath999]

Honestly, the only people I pay attention to in critique from whose work I have seen and respect.

Everybody has an opinion, and has a right to express it.

Everybody, however, does not have an INFORMED opinion worth listening to.

I don't offer critique, generally, because I don't feel qualified to do so. I am a total hack when it comes to my work, and I freely admit it. There are some very talented people around here who do fine work, and there are a lot of hacks who THINK they do fine work. There are also a lot of folks who offer opinions who don't post their own stuff, so I have no idea whether they are actually very good or just blowhards.

I offer opinions on equipment that I own or have used. I answer specific questions to the best of my ability. That's about all you will get from me.

 

[Village Idiot]

I believe you have to first be able to step away from your own work and not look at it as a father or mother viewing their child but as some one that's not related to the work and viewing it through the "C&Cer's" eyes. If some one says your work is a horrible piece of trash with bad exposure, too much grain, and suffering from a horrible choice of too much saturation and contrast, you have to be able to pick out why they said that and objectively look at your work and say "they may be right".

Too many people here get so offensive when one out of ten people don't say "good job" and actually criticise their work. I mean this,

Photo Galleries
Photos submitted by members for general display or critique.

is posted above the gallery section with the exception of the Just for fun forum. If you can't honestly handle critique, you need to note that in your post. Keep in mind you'll get comments and critiques ranging from posters with years of experience to those with weeks of experience. If you have a hard time sorting them out or you can't step back from your photo and look at it through their eyes, then you don't benefit from any of it.

Plus insulting people and calling them names is something that should seriously not be in any critique post.

What is it that makes your critique of value?

Are you capable of criticising your own critique?

What qualifies your technical opinion?

& Can you accept criticism of your critique skills?

- My experience. I don't critique the types of photography that I don't know or don't like unless there's basic problems that could use help. I don't like nature photography, taking pictures of flowers, or wedding photography. I do a lot of work with artificial lighting and people and such. I've done work for clients in this field and I'm putting together a decent glamour portfolio. I obviously have a good comprehension of lighting and can help out people when they're asking for C&C. I can't tell you why your flower picture is good beyond the basics and the lighting.

-Yes. I normally only post photos that I feel are worth posting. That's why you don't see me posting a million photos. Even the ones I do post, I can look at the from another's point of view when it comes to their comments.

-In ten years I think I've finally figured out what I'm doing.

-As long as people aren't openly insulting me for it.

 

[JerryPH]

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.
Constant questioning of your own views, opinions and values is a good thing to do.

Either I was not clear, or you misunderstood me. I am not questioning that CC is good or bad, I recognize it as a good thing, and I do know when and where to go for my critique. However, this incessant whining about how to process and complete this process of how to both ask for a critique and then how to post one. It's been so chewed to death its beyond rediculous.

On one side we have people looking for CC and have no concept on how to accept it... and then the other side are people that have no idea how to give it. The biggest issues are not coming frmo ANYWHERE else BUT this group, if you look at it!!

I am not saying everyone is like that, but I am saying that one one side we have to tell people to water down their critique to not offend anyone, and on the other side, tell the ones that want sincere opinions to toughen up... does that really need to be even said?

By questioning yourself then you are admitting the possibility that you could be mistaken, and doing this puts you in a receptive frame of mind that allows you to learn.

You speak of the process of CCing when done properly... I cannot but agree. This is not the issue causing us greif, unfortunately.

This is difficult I know because it appears as a threat to the ego.

Only to those that are afraid of criticism. A critique is not that, it is supposed to be a sincere attempt at sharing technical, opinion and art based information for the betterment of the person so that they can improve. If you are afraid to get a bruised ego, don't ask for a CC, simple as that, no?

I have taught people who have argued themselves into the most ridiculous and untenable position for no other reason than they cannot admit they are wrong, seeing it as a sign of weakness. It is only a sign of stupidity.

It goes even a little beyond that. That position of desiring to argue is not what your average person asking for a CC comes in with in terms of a mindset on this club. It is either someone looking for a pat on the back (attention monger?), or someone looking for sincere CC to impove. If they are insecure, they get all hurt. Thats a poor mindset. If they come in expecting a pat on the back, and get tranmpled, get all insulted. Thats a poor mindset. If they are falsly praised, they learn nothing. Thats a poor mindset too.

Pointing back to my post above, if you are asking for a CC, grit your teeth, smile and take it and THANK the person for caring enough to care to post. Afterwards, learn what you can. This is only possible when the ego and insecurity is set aside for a moment.

Any politician will serve as an example.

AMEN!!

If threads like this asking such questions leads even just one person to improve their understanding of things then it is worth it.

My contention is that I am flabbergasted that:
1 - People do not know how to offer proper critique
2 - People do not know how to accept a proper critique

... and that just blows me away that it needs to be even said. :meh:

There is nothing easier than to open your heart and speak your mind and tell someone what you think of their work on a technical, art and opinionated level and explain why you said what you said. There is nothing easier than to sit back, look at someone's CC and accept it for what it is at face value, take what you consider beneficial out of it and leave the rest behind.

That is the basics of the system that a critique should be based on.

 

[Overread]

out of interest - can anyone direct me to 10 recent examples where comments/crits has gone wrong?
I don't mean posts where no one has commented - which for what ever reason have fallen through the net, but ones where we have this massive arguing and problems - only I just don't seem to be seeing them around in the vast numbers that threads like this one are suggesting - might be I am just missing them or looking in the wrong place

 

[Emerana]

I have a hard time understanding why anyone gets their panties in a twist over C&C. If it isnt helpful to you, thats fine, dont apply it to your psyche or work. If it hurts your feelings, toughen up. If someone's opinion negatively affects your art, thats your issue not theirs. Seek out opinions from people who matter to you and dont ask a bunch of strangers online. And if you only want a pat on the head and an "atta boy", call your mom.

Another note, out of the top, say, 100 experts on this board, I would be willing to bet 10% or more are significantly padding their cred or outright lying about their level of photography. You could be taking advice from a smooth talking 17 year old punk who thinks he knows everything (I think there are a couple out there). And if you say "noooooo I see their work so I know". Think hard. Have you?

 

[Hertz van Rental]

My contention is that I am flabbergasted that:
1 - People do not know how to offer proper critique
2 - People do not know how to accept a proper critique

... and that just blows me away that it needs to be even said.

I think we are both singing from the same song book.
But why should this surprise you?
We don't know how to find a square root or ride a bicycle until we are taught how.
Giving and receiving a crit are things that have to be learned and I would imagine that few here have ever received a proper crit (as one would get if one was studying Photography full time at College).
So never having received a proper crit it is not surprising that people do not know how to give one.
What generally happens is that they confuse personal opinion for fact (politicians again) and personal prejudice for knowledge.
I am amazed, though, that people appear to be proud of being self-taught.
Would you let a doctor near you with a knife, or let a tradesman loose in your home if they announced that they were self-taught and had got it all out of a book?
I know I wouldn't.
So why should Photography be any different?* :mrgreen:





*I'm sorry but I just have this urge to throw a cat amongst the pigeons to-day.

 

[LaFoto]

OK. Cat among the pigeons. Right.

But ...

...this is an internet forum, pasttime. Entertainment.

Not a hospital where you go and are frightfully sick. Which is why not everyone NEEDS to be a doctor to speak their mind.

Internet forums are means of communication. Not an auditory in university.

 

[kundalini]

Speaking of animals amongst us.....

 

[Arch]

I think we are both singing from the same song book.
But why should this surprise you?
We don't know how to find a square root or ride a bicycle until we are taught how.
Giving and receiving a crit are things that have to be learned and I would imagine that few here have ever received a proper crit (as one would get if one was studying Photography full time at College).
So never having received a proper crit it is not surprising that people do not know how to give one.
What generally happens is that they confuse personal opinion for fact (politicians again) and personal prejudice for knowledge.
I am amazed, though, that people appear to be proud of being self-taught.
Would you let a doctor near you with a knife, or let a tradesman loose in your home if they announced that they were self-taught and had got it all out of a book?
I know I wouldn't.
So why should Photography be any different?* :mrgreen:





*I'm sorry but I just have this urge to throw a cat amongst the pigeons to-day.

I didn't feel like joining this debate as it been covered a few times before.

But this post from Hertz pretty much sums up my opinion.

I have seen some god awful crits on many photo forums... what is a bad crit? Its difficult to word correctly.. but i can demonstrate my opinion with an example.

One girl did a few arty self ports... she stated they were ment to be moody and make you wonder what she is thinking... among other things..

They worked for me... the expressions she used, tired, listless looking... the light was low... the room was messy and the framing wasn't perfect like you'd just walked in on her.


She had already recieved 4 'crits' when i got to the thread. Unlucky for her, the 4 'crits' missed the point by a mile.
It actually started with the first guy and the others just seemed to aimlessly agree.
They said things like 'they are too dark'.... 'try and use a reflector for the other side of your face'.... 'the end of your foot is out of the frame'... and best of all,.. 'try and smile you look a bit miserable'.....

Now, lets just take the first guys 'critique'... he is giving advice as to what he has seen and heard a good portrait should be... lighting... position... expression... but he has zero art training. Therefore his crit was shallow, misinformed and for the OP, completely useless. He may as well have said 'if you go 10 miles into the city you could use a studio instead of your living room'.

This type of crit happens quite alot.... and the main reason for this is a lack of understanding and training on the behalf of the person giving the crit.

The OP should state what they were trying to do... and what the image is for. If the image is for commercial purposes then a more technical critique may be given (altough artistic interpretation is always useful too)... If the image is more artistic expression tho, then technical advice should really only be given once it is known what the OP is trying to achieve... and even then it can be a matter of opinion.

All of the above is what heppens when people try and give serious crits tho... for the majority of pics that get posted here a general 'that lampost is in the way' can surfice and it doesnt always need to go deeper than that.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

...this is an internet forum, pasttime. Entertainment.

Not a hospital where you go and are frightfully sick. Which is why not everyone NEEDS to be a doctor to speak their mind.

Internet forums are means of communication. Not an auditory in university.

This is indeed true in principle yet people still come here looking for advice and help concerning the pictures they take or the equipment they have got.. There are numerous threads started by people asking how they go about becoming professionals. And look at all those comments along the lines of 'I just bought myself a camera and want to learn how to use it so I came here'.
It seems to me that people use it like a University.
I was making the point though that threads like this discussing what a critique is, how it should be given and how it should be received are very important because there are, I am sure, a lot of people who would like to know the answers. And there are certainly a lot of people here who have never experienced a 'proper' one but would like to.
This thread is no different from one that begins 'I want to buy a camera, which one should I get? Canon or Nikon?'
And it is also about communication because we are sharing our views on the subject. And as there are people here with a wide and varied range of experiences you will get a wide range of views expressed - from the basic through to the academic.
This thread should therefore be viewed as being like a crit. Read it, think about it and if any opinion expressed helps you in what you are trying to do then take it on board. Anything that you don't think helps ignore.
The only important thing is to keep an open mind and not reject things out of hand because they don't confirm your personal beliefs. :study:

 

[LaFoto]

It seems to me that people use it like a University.

They should know, however, that they do so at their own risk
This is not TheProfessors'Forum .

The only important thing is to keep an open mind and not reject things out of hand because they don't confirm your personal beliefs. :study:

Very true. Well said. :thumbup:

 

[pm63]

Photo critique is a touchy business, and there are many who will argue because they don't accept your opinion or cannot take CC.

I believe it should be polite and by no means discouraging, and above all constructive. Plain rude critique that is derogatory to the photographer, though it happens rarely, should be heavily frowned upon. I also think both parties should take it lightly and be open to discussion, and keep in mind that an opinion is just that; an opinion.

I do not think there are any hard-and-fast specific formulas for how a critique should be done.

 

[jwkwd]

Simple, I don't. I don't post photo's, because what I do and what I like is for me, so I pretty much don't care what people think. I believe that since I have been going to this board I critiqued maybe 3 or 4 photo's and those were just wonderful and needed a " great job " said about them. I usually don't even look at them anymore. I find myself starting to read what other people say, instead of just looking at the photo and moving on. Then sooner or later, some one will say that this is blown out or whatever, and the OP get's upset, then it becomes a MP thing, then a Nikon, Canon thing..........

 

[Dioboleque]

It seems to me that people use it like a University.

I can vouch for this personally. I found this site via Google while searching for photography assignments. My interest in photography was growing and I looked and looked for classes and such, but I could not find anything locally aside from colleges and online courses which were $$$. Also, I'd always been told by friends and family that my pictures were really nice, but I'm no idiot, I know how that goes; so I came here to find out if anyone else agreed... so far, not so much. So now it seems my mission is to one day take photos that the members here think are really nice too. I can like my own stuff and that's just fine, but I'd prefer to take pics which are widely accepted as nice, pics which I can confidently be proud of. :sillysmi: