The Coffee House

[waday]

It was intentional and runner was out of base path as he slid late and just over the base, hence the reason for suspension. This has been going on for years and finally, Torre had the balls to make it a suspension in order to protect the helpless infielders in the future. Dirty play but what do you expect as it has been going unchecked for years.

Maybe my baseball physics/logic is incorrect?

You ain't wrong.

Ordinarily, the base runner will attempt to be somewhat near the bag so he won't be called "out". In this case, the runner MAYBE could have touched the bag with his hand, but since he didn't even try to touch it, it was seen as nothing but a blatant attempt at taking out the 2nd baseman.

Yes, it has been going on for years. About a hundred years, I think.

Thanks for the replies! That's just crazy. I always knew that people could pretty much slide in and destroy the catcher, assuming he had the ball and was prepared to stop the person running to home plate. I guess I never really saw this extended to other bases in such a cavalier attempt to hurt someone.

Ok, so that makes sense why he was suspended. I'm glad he was suspended.

So this leads to my next (honest) question: was Utley's team 'hurting' to the point that they needed to rely on cheap/dirty tricks to win? Did they end up winning?

Actually yes. Utley's slide sparked a four run inning for the Dodgers and ultimately a 5-2 victory.

Using a slide to break up a play is a legal play. It is a technique specifically taught and practiced. The defense practices techniques to counter said slides. Utley's extreme use of this technique, coming in late, high and beyond the base is cause for the, now contested, suspension/penalty. In soccer his slide (tackle) would have resulted in a red card and in American football in a 15 yard personal foul penalty.

The breaking up of double plays are routinely one of the more spectacular plays in baseball. Unfortunately Utley's over enthusiastic slide seriously injured the Met's shortstop. The intent of serious bodily harm is never the goal of a well coached team or a rational athletic.

Interesting that it's legal play in baseball, but not legal in many other sports. I'm assuming it's also probably not legal in bowling or golf. I haven't seen too many people slide in bowling, except the ones that were drunk. Same goes for golfing.

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

 

[Designer]

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

It's a play they learn in Little League, and it's often seen as a blatant attempt to take the defender out, usually not with any serious injury, however.

 

[KenC]

Morning, hosers! Sympathies to all the others out there for whom this is not a holiday. At least the train wasn't crowded.

Having my coffee and trying to get my brain organized, or at least a little less disorganized ...

Getting less disorganized is always a good thing. I am always trying to get less disorganized. But chaos is meaningful in my life and I embrace it.

Me too, but they just don't understand about that at work ...

 

[KenC]

That slide and collision was most clearly intentional to avoid a double-play, correct?

Yes, and the umps used to let this go provided that the runner was close enough to the bag to touch it (even if he didn't). I think it's gotten out of hand and so now we have the crackdown. While they're keeping the runners honest, I hope they do the same for the pivot man and call the runner safe if the pivot man does not touch the bag. I've seen plays where they are not within three feet of the bag and the runner is out.

It's another thing like the pitcher/batter balance - they keep tweaking the rules (or at least the actual practice) to try to get it right.

 

[waday]

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

It's a play they learn in Little League, and it's often seen as a blatant attempt to take the defender out, usually not with any serious injury, however.

You're blowing my mind. Little League!? Now, that's crazy. Why in the world are we teaching our children to cheat? Why is it ok to cheat on the ballfield but not on a test?

That slide and collision was most clearly intentional to avoid a double-play, correct?

Yes, and the umps used to let this go provided that the runner was close enough to the bag to touch it (even if he didn't). I think it's gotten out of hand and so now we have the crackdown. While they're keeping the runners honest, I hope they do the same for the pivot man and call the runner safe if the pivot man does not touch the bag. I've seen plays where they are not within three feet of the bag and the runner is out.

It's another thing like the pitcher/batter balance - they keep tweaking the rules (or at least the actual practice) to try to get it right.

I'm glad that they're not letting it go anymore. I was with you until pivot man, which made me immediately think of this (and my concentration was lost):

 

[JacaRanda]

Oh, a little late to this game (the slide) and no pun intended.

Designer is correct Wade. The intention has been taught pretty much forever. Utley took it too far by never attempting to even touch the bag.
Normally, that kind of play is considered hustle and somewhat taking one for the team. The intention to break up the play is always there, but rarely intention to hurt someone.

 

[JacaRanda]

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

It's a play they learn in Little League, and it's often seen as a blatant attempt to take the defender out, usually not with any serious injury, however.

You're blowing my mind. Little League!? Now, that's crazy. Why in the world are we teaching our children to cheat? Why is it ok to cheat on the ballfield but not on a test?

That slide and collision was most clearly intentional to avoid a double-play, correct?

Yes, and the umps used to let this go provided that the runner was close enough to the bag to touch it (even if he didn't). I think it's gotten out of hand and so now we have the crackdown. While they're keeping the runners honest, I hope they do the same for the pivot man and call the runner safe if the pivot man does not touch the bag. I've seen plays where they are not within three feet of the bag and the runner is out.

It's another thing like the pitcher/batter balance - they keep tweaking the rules (or at least the actual practice) to try to get it right.

I'm glad that they're not letting it go anymore. I was with you until pivot man, which made me immediately think of this (and my concentration was lost):

It's not considered cheating. It's done to break up a double play - make it harder for the person to get one person out (in this case Utley) and still being able to make an accurate throw to first to get the second runner out (or get a throw off at all).

BTW, they are no longer allowed to take liberties on the catcher in a play at home plate, and the catcher is not allowed to block the plate like they used to.

 

[KenC]

I was with you until pivot man

The guy making the throw to first - could be either the second baseman or shortstop, depending on where the ball was hit.

 

[waday]

It's not considered cheating. It's done to break up a double play - make it harder for the person to get one person out (in this case Utley) and still being able to make an accurate throw to first to get the second runner out (or get a throw off at all).

Seriously, thank you all for helping me understand. Ok, so I think I got it:

The runner is supposed to slide into second-base (also presumably works for other bases, like third?), even though he pretty much knows he's already out. He performs the play anyways to break up the double-play. The slide is supposed to be close enough to make it look like he's actually trying to reach the base in time, while making some sort of an attempt to touch the base to make it look like he's trying to be safe. The purpose of the slide is to 'break-up' the momentum of the pivot person (thanks @KenC!), so that he pretty much has to move out of the way of the slide. The pivot person is not supposed to get hit/hurt during this slide. Since the pivot person has to move out of the way, he loses his momentum, and can no longer throw the ball to first in time to get the batter out.

The issue with this case is that Utley just executed it so poorly that he pretty much screwed up everything about the play?

 

[Gary A.]

It was intentional and runner was out of base path as he slid late and just over the base, hence the reason for suspension. This has been going on for years and finally, Torre had the balls to make it a suspension in order to protect the helpless infielders in the future. Dirty play but what do you expect as it has been going unchecked for years.

Maybe my baseball physics/logic is incorrect?

You ain't wrong.

Ordinarily, the base runner will attempt to be somewhat near the bag so he won't be called "out". In this case, the runner MAYBE could have touched the bag with his hand, but since he didn't even try to touch it, it was seen as nothing but a blatant attempt at taking out the 2nd baseman.

Yes, it has been going on for years. About a hundred years, I think.

Thanks for the replies! That's just crazy. I always knew that people could pretty much slide in and destroy the catcher, assuming he had the ball and was prepared to stop the person running to home plate. I guess I never really saw this extended to other bases in such a cavalier attempt to hurt someone.

Ok, so that makes sense why he was suspended. I'm glad he was suspended.

So this leads to my next (honest) question: was Utley's team 'hurting' to the point that they needed to rely on cheap/dirty tricks to win? Did they end up winning?

Actually yes. Utley's slide sparked a four run inning for the Dodgers and ultimately a 5-2 victory.

Using a slide to break up a play is a legal play. It is a technique specifically taught and practiced. The defense practices techniques to counter said slides. Utley's extreme use of this technique, coming in late, high and beyond the base is cause for the, now contested, suspension/penalty. In soccer his slide (tackle) would have resulted in a red card and in American football in a 15 yard personal foul penalty.

The breaking up of double plays are routinely one of the more spectacular plays in baseball. Unfortunately Utley's over enthusiastic slide seriously injured the Met's shortstop. The intent of serious bodily harm is never the goal of a well coached team or a rational athletic.

Interesting that it's legal play in baseball, but not legal in many other sports. I'm assuming it's also probably not legal in bowling or golf. I haven't seen too many people slide in bowling, except the ones that were drunk. Same goes for golfing.

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

I am saying that a slide used to break up a double play is legal. I am saying that Utley took that slide beyond the realm of legal by his overly-aggressive use of the slide. While slides/tackles are also legal and used in soccer and football, an overly-aggressive slide in these sports would result in a Red Card or a Personal Foul penalty.

Yes, slides against the opposition are not permissible in bowling, but on the flip side ... tossing around a 20 pound ball is not permissible in baseball.

 

[waday]

It was intentional and runner was out of base path as he slid late and just over the base, hence the reason for suspension. This has been going on for years and finally, Torre had the balls to make it a suspension in order to protect the helpless infielders in the future. Dirty play but what do you expect as it has been going unchecked for years.

Maybe my baseball physics/logic is incorrect?

You ain't wrong.

Ordinarily, the base runner will attempt to be somewhat near the bag so he won't be called "out". In this case, the runner MAYBE could have touched the bag with his hand, but since he didn't even try to touch it, it was seen as nothing but a blatant attempt at taking out the 2nd baseman.

Yes, it has been going on for years. About a hundred years, I think.

Thanks for the replies! That's just crazy. I always knew that people could pretty much slide in and destroy the catcher, assuming he had the ball and was prepared to stop the person running to home plate. I guess I never really saw this extended to other bases in such a cavalier attempt to hurt someone.

Ok, so that makes sense why he was suspended. I'm glad he was suspended.

So this leads to my next (honest) question: was Utley's team 'hurting' to the point that they needed to rely on cheap/dirty tricks to win? Did they end up winning?

Actually yes. Utley's slide sparked a four run inning for the Dodgers and ultimately a 5-2 victory.

Using a slide to break up a play is a legal play. It is a technique specifically taught and practiced. The defense practices techniques to counter said slides. Utley's extreme use of this technique, coming in late, high and beyond the base is cause for the, now contested, suspension/penalty. In soccer his slide (tackle) would have resulted in a red card and in American football in a 15 yard personal foul penalty.

The breaking up of double plays are routinely one of the more spectacular plays in baseball. Unfortunately Utley's over enthusiastic slide seriously injured the Met's shortstop. The intent of serious bodily harm is never the goal of a well coached team or a rational athletic.

Interesting that it's legal play in baseball, but not legal in many other sports. I'm assuming it's also probably not legal in bowling or golf. I haven't seen too many people slide in bowling, except the ones that were drunk. Same goes for golfing.

In other words, what you're saying is that Utley apparently hasn't been trained well-enough on how to execute such a dirty play and has now brought this play into question because he seriously injured the Mets' shortstop?

I am saying that a slide used to break up a double play is illegal. I am saying that Utley took that slide beyond the realm of legal by his overly-aggressive use of the slide. While slides/tackles are also legal and used in soccer and football, an overly-aggressive slide in these sports would result in a Red Card or a Personal Foul penalty.

Yes, slides against the opposition are not permissible in bowling, but on the flip side ... tossing around a 20 pound ball is not permissible in baseball.

Thank you! I'm assuming a 20-pound ball would be pretty hard to hit and throw in baseball, haha!

 

[JacaRanda]

It's not considered cheating. It's done to break up a double play - make it harder for the person to get one person out (in this case Utley) and still being able to make an accurate throw to first to get the second runner out (or get a throw off at all).

Seriously, thank you all for helping me understand. Ok, so I think I got it:

The runner is supposed to slide into second-base (also presumably works for other bases, like third?), even though he pretty much knows he's already out. He performs the play anyways to break up the double-play. The slide is supposed to be close enough to make it look like he's actually trying to reach the base in time, while making some sort of an attempt to touch the base to make it look like he's trying to be safe. The purpose of the slide is to 'break-up' the momentum of the pivot person (thanks @KenC!), so that he pretty much has to move out of the way of the slide. The pivot person is not supposed to get hit/hurt during this slide. Since the pivot person has to move out of the way, he loses his momentum, and can no longer throw the ball to first in time to get the batter out.

The issue with this case is that Utley just executed it so poorly that he pretty much screwed up everything about the play?

I'd say you pretty much got it.

 

[JacaRanda]

I think Gary meant 'legal' in his first sentence.

 

[waday]

It's not considered cheating. It's done to break up a double play - make it harder for the person to get one person out (in this case Utley) and still being able to make an accurate throw to first to get the second runner out (or get a throw off at all).

Seriously, thank you all for helping me understand. Ok, so I think I got it:

The runner is supposed to slide into second-base (also presumably works for other bases, like third?), even though he pretty much knows he's already out. He performs the play anyways to break up the double-play. The slide is supposed to be close enough to make it look like he's actually trying to reach the base in time, while making some sort of an attempt to touch the base to make it look like he's trying to be safe. The purpose of the slide is to 'break-up' the momentum of the pivot person (thanks @KenC!), so that he pretty much has to move out of the way of the slide. The pivot person is not supposed to get hit/hurt during this slide. Since the pivot person has to move out of the way, he loses his momentum, and can no longer throw the ball to first in time to get the batter out.

The issue with this case is that Utley just executed it so poorly that he pretty much screwed up everything about the play?

I'd say you pretty much got it.

Awesome! Now I can tell my brother I understand! Hahaha

This is so interesting to me. I need to brush up on sports and all sorts of plays like these.

 

[Gary A.]

PS- Should Utley play today ... as he is contesting the suspension ... he will probably get hit with a pitch when he comes up to bat. Which isn't legal under any circumstances, but that is the way the game is played. You protect your team. Normally, the pitch will be thrown at the body ... but due to the severity of the injury and the intensity of the playoffs ... it may be thrown at the head. A head shot may empty both benches and the pitcher may immediately be tossed out of the game. Utley knows this as well.