This Summer's Project: Learning Film

vintagesnaps · Jun 9, 2015

I would suggest a class, workshop, camera club, anywhere you can get some experience in the darkroom to see how well you like it - if you love it you'll probably know it, I could spend hours in a darkroom and lose track of if it's still light out (if you're in the dark glow of a safelight long enough I think it's like your own little world!).

I love to print, but try it and see if you like it. For me, a bit of a miss was pottery - I like it, and might do a workshop or something again someday - but I am not that good at throwing a pot on the wheel. Didn't love it enough to want to stay with it. But it was a fun experience, just not my thing enough to be a hobby. I wouldn't want to get into all the equipment and expense and then find out you don't like it enough to stay with it.

I used to use a shared darkroom at a local university but the building got remodeled and that was that. In the summer I had the place to myself (while the pottery studio below was always busy! lol) I don't find it that hard once you learn it, or that time consuming compared to the amount of time some people seem to be spending post processing digitally. But it takes learning proper techniques (or probably finding out the hard way what not to do!). And does involve a certain amount of set up and clean up.

And it helps to get proper exposures to have negatives that aren't too dense and definitely not too thin, then once I get exposure time determined I can usually crank out prints pretty efficiently. I learned from a local camera shop owner who since retired and closed up shop (where I bought my first camera) to start with either f8 and 11 sec. (or f11 and 8 sec.) and that works almost all the time for me as a starting point. (I guess old photographers' tales actually can work!)

Try Large Format Photography Forum . I don't get on much but there is darkroom discussion and some I think doing 4x5.

Also look up Mat Marrash (yes one T in Mat), he does large format, view cameras, etc. He's on the FPP podcasts which I'm way behind on listening to so am not up on what they have going on. But look him up, he has his own website etc.
Film Photography Project An Internet Radio Show On-Line Resource for Film Shooters Worldwide

(And yes, you could take a class and get a camera to start with and send film out, then go from there. You don't have to process/print/scan everything yourself, sometimes I get film developed and scanned, usually did that to be able to go thru negs on my lightbox at home since my time was limited in the darkroom. As you go along you'll probably figure out what works best for you.)

Derrel · Jun 9, 2015

Well....locally a SInar view camera and an immaculate Nikkor 210mm f/5.6 is $795...buuuuut, looking on-line at KEH.com I see less glamorous 4x5 rigs for a ton less at Results for 4x5 - Page 1 - Purchase - KEH Camera

For example, bargain condition Calumet 4x5 monorails are at $69 and $89; a Graflex 4x5 monorail is $69 in Bargain shape, $268 in EXC. One I REALLY think you'd like would be the early production Toyo 45S in off-white color at $199 in EXC shape.

Lenses are cheap, and plentiful these days. A 90mm is a wide-angle, a 210 to 240mm is a normal; a 125 to 150mm is very useful 'semi-normal/semi-wide'. View camera lenses mounted in something common like a Copal 0 shutter range in price from $89 in UGLY or BGN grade, to around $459 for excellent, higher-grade (but shy of 'exotic') lenses. Fujinon, Nikkor, Schneider,Rodenstock are all very good lens brands.

The lens needs to be mounted on a flat lensboard, which is a very simple device, with a hole milled through it, and a retaining ring to hold the lens on the back.

To develop multiple sheets, something like a $25-$35 Yankee 4x5 sheet film developing tank with lid would be an easy way to go; you need film hangers for each sheet. It's nice to have a fabric changing bag for loading film holders in daylight in normal conditions. Speaking of which, 4x5 sheet film holders are not that expensive...owning 5 or 6 ought to be enough: 10 or 12 sheets of film is a lot of work for a normal day for a beginner who is shooting slowly. You want a dark cloth and about an 8x loupe for focusing, and a good tripod and head.

limr · Jun 9, 2015

Remember that you don't need a darkroom to develop. You can still learn how to develop, push and pull included, without buying an enlarger or setting up a darkroom. Like Derrel said, get the 4x5 daylight tank and a changing bag, learn about the highs and lows of developing before adding printing into the mix.

So, yeah, I agree that first you learn about the camera by maybe taking a class. Then learn the developing, and when you're comfortable with that, then move up to printing. And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can contact print the sheet film, so you can get into wet printing before you even get an enlarger. You'll go through a lot of paper when you start out, so it might be worth it to try it out smaller before going through boxes of the more expensive larger papers.

Derrel · Jun 9, 2015

Most of my 4x5 view camera work was shot on E-6 process color slide film. It's economical, and the film "is the picture" on color slide film...it's a very simple process: development is done to standard, rigidly controlled E-6 standards, or it's push-processed. It's easy to evaluate what was done properly, or wrongly; just put the film in its poly envelope onto a lightbox or light table; the "picture" is easily seen in its overall state without a magnifier of any kind, but to evaluate critical, small detail simply use a loupe to evaluate the small details. In a sense, a color transparency or "chrome" shot on 4x5 is somewhat of a self-contained, complete thing--it does not need scanning or printing to evaluate color or composition or exposure, not in the same way a color negative almost totally requires of anybody less than a darkroom master used to color negs, and not in the same way a B&W negative requires. Evaluating a color negative is like reading a restaurant menu written in some ancient, dead language...B&W negs are in Spanish or French--college level! E-6 chromes are like primary school books with big pictures!

As limr mentioned, no, one does not NEED a 4x5 inch capable (read that to mean a large, bulky, heavy) enlarger to make wet prints from 4x5 B&W negatives: B&W contact prints can be made with a $5-$10 contact printing frame, the negatives, and 4x5 inch sheets of enlarging paper; sure, the image is only the size of the negative, but a contact print from a 4x5 neg is...well, a decent-sized print you can hold in your hands and show to other people.

kdthomas · Jun 10, 2015

Derrel said:
For example, bargain condition Calumet 4x5 monorails are at $69 and $89; a Graflex 4x5 monorail is $69 in Bargain shape, $268 in EXC. One I REALLY think you'd like would be the early production Toyo 45S in off-white color at $199 in EXC shape.

Yessir ... I'm eyeballing that one sure enough ... that one has 460 mm of extension ... which sounds like plenty for 210 mm lens at 1.5 meter, since I can't image getting closer than that. Insane case (I assume it's insane) of 300 mm lens and 1 meter from camera:

1/F = 1/D + 1/B ==> B = 1/((1/300)-(1/1000)) = 429 mm of extension. Sounds like we're good there.

Only thing I wonder is, should I be taking that thing out into the boonies? I plan on essentially babying it. But many cycles of setup/sit in texas sunlight/shoot/takedown/packup/drive 5 miles/setup/shoot/takedown etc. ... should I be doing that with a monorail, or get a field-type camera? $199 is pretty low risk. I think I will order this camera.

-- Next to target a 210 mm lens for portraits and a 75 mm for landscapes. This is where I want the money to go.

I'm assuming most lenses will fit most lens boards. Actually looks like the shutter is the key right? So if I buy two lenses with Copal 0 shutters, I should be able to get two Toyo lens boards and expect to be good to go? And the Copal should meet the requirement of firing the strobes.

-- Also a sturdy, indestructible tripod, that can double as a Buffalo Bludgeon (hmmm good band name). I assume I'll need something very stable for longer exposures, with a top-heavy camera, etc.

Am I thinking straight, asking the right questions?

Again thanks (everyone) for the advice ... you're saving me a lot of frustration & money.

kdthomas · Jun 10, 2015

Eyeballing this lens:

210 F5.6 APO SYMMAR MC COPAL BT 42 MT 4X5 LENS - KEH Camera

and this one:

75 F8 SUPER ANGULON COPAL BT 35 MT 4X5 LENS - KEH Camera

480sparky · Jun 10, 2015

Monorails aren't exactly the easiest to work with in the field. If that's the direction you're taking with LF, you may want to look more into a 'technical' or 'field' camera, like a Tachihara, Shen Hao, Wista or Wisner.

kdthomas · Jun 10, 2015

The Toyo and the 210 mm lens are on the way !! Now to get a loupe, lensboard, superman-cape, film holder and tripod and heaven knows what else

I've decided to start in the studio with the monorail. That way I can get the basics down in air-conditioned comfort without screwing around outside with the bugs and the heat.

Derrel · Jun 10, 2015

I have an old Linhof Color 4x5 monorail...I used to pack it around--by the RAIL as the handle, with the rail in my palm and the camera hanging down below it. I had a short rail for it, as well as an extension, so it "packed" very easily. A monorail can be carried in a backpack with the front and rear standards slid close to one another, and the camera riding down below the rail.

The Copal 0 and Copal 1 both have PC connections on them, and require different hole sizes in the lensboards. I would buy four or five double-sided film holders so you can load up eight or 10 sheets at a go.

This page has some neat photos of a whole bunch of 4x5 accessories made for the Linhof camera system, and gives an overview of lensboards, offset lensboards, folding viewing hoods, rollfilm backs, and a bunch of other stuff.les chambres linhof technika

kdthomas · Jun 10, 2015

Dang it they make polaroid film for LF but the holder is like $125

:icon_eek:

Am I seeing this correctly?

Fujifilm PA-45 Film Holder for 4x5 Instant Peel-Apart 14250691

Derrel · Jun 10, 2015

Did you see the part where is states, "Note: All films compatible with this holder have been discontinued." But yeah, it's $145 for the holder, which is a special order item from B&H Photo. The "old" Polaroid holders used to be plentiful, and pretty affordable. Polaroid film has had a rough, rough go of things in this digital world. I'm not up on what is available in instant film these days for 4x5.

You will find one thing with shooting sheet film: you have to know what to do when you set up the camera, and you need to KNOW how to use a light meter. It's not that difficult, really. You can use a digital SLR as a sort of proofing tool, rather than Polaroid film. It's really not that different from any other type of critical, precise photography. Everything is upside down, and laterally reversed when you look at the image on the groundglass. You have a nice revolving back, and a fairly square-ish aspect ratio. it's not all "that" difficult.

limr · Jun 10, 2015

kdthomas said:
Dang it they make polaroid film for LF but the holder is like $125

Am I seeing this correctly?

Fujifilm PA-45 Film Holder for 4x5 Instant Peel-Apart 14250691

Polaroid backs aren't really cheap in general. And if you think sheet film is expensive, wait until you get into instant film! And beware - that way lies heartache. Just as you fall in love with it, it is discontinued or the price goes up. If you would like to try instant, get yourself an old Land Camera and some Fujifilm 100C (2x3) peel apart. It's still just under $1 a shot, but it's much less of an investment. Working Land Cameras can be had for pocket change practically, and the film is still available.

If you really really must, there IS a new 4x5 black and white instant film in development (no pun intended...)
New55 FILM a new instant 4 5 film that produces a superb negative and a positive print too
and the blog for updates: New55 FILM

Derrel · Jun 10, 2015

It is not all that complicated. Introduction To Large Format Part I

There is a small book that covers this too....USED to be a web site as well that had really GOOD photos showing what rise, tilt,and swing did. I am sure there are ample resources if you look around a bit. Large Format Photography primer equipment

Gary A. · Jun 10, 2015

Good luck man. Jumping into 4x5 film without film or MF/LF background, I think, is daunting. Most photogs build up to LF ... Miniature then MF then LF.

Remember that attention to details ... at every step, will save you time, money and make you a hero. Along with all the other stuff ... get a small notebook and take notes. Notes of what to do and notes of what you did ... copious notes.

Good Luck.