Thought

[skieur]

One issue I see is that some people are no good at offering criticism and often come across as rude. They claim that they're "just being honest and it's who they are," but really, you can be honest without sounding like a complete ass.

Good topic...

I think you need to realize the nature of criticism or critique. Unfortunately beginners have been encouraged to engage in critique without understanding what it is all about. Emotional reactions such as "I don't like it, because...." are personal and that is not critique.

At the same time, beginners tend to look at content of the image and ignore detail. This is partially because not understanding the "possibilities", they do not recognize mistakes and photo problems and don't recognize that considerable improvement is possible.

Experienced photographers who have been involved in professional critique realize that the objectives are technical and compositional excellence and they have seen both. They seldom miss the smallest detail that detracts from the image and will point it out in a straightforward manner. That by the way is construed as "rude" only to those without experience or those with a limited background in critique. Sounding like a complete ass is the person who does not understand the nature of critique rather than the person who gives it in a professional manner and that means clearly, honestly and what some might consider "rudely".

I would suggest to any beginner to study composition and technique to the point where you really understand the nature of professional critique.
Don't characterize what you do not fully understand, and don't wrongly assume that professional critique is given with any assumed "superiority".
It is how we learned, and we are passing that on to you.

skieur

 

[Captain IK]

I would suggest to any beginner to study composition and technique to the point where you really understand the nature of professional critique.
Don't characterize what you do not fully understand, and don't wrongly assume that professional critique is given with any assumed "superiority".
It is how we learned, and we are passing that on to you.

skieur

I agree, but that is in part why the beginners are here. This forum is for beginners as well as professionals and this is where many "noobs" come to learn the ropes.
Critique and constructive criticism is part of the learning process, but it does not have to be done in the form of an attack, just as one should not be offended when they are told thier photo needs work.

 

[skieur]

I agree, but that is in part why the beginners are here. This forum is for beginners as well as professionals and this is where many "noobs" come to learn the ropes.
Critique and constructive criticism is part of the learning process, but it does not have to be done in the form of an attack, just as one should not be offended when they are told thier photo needs work.

I would be interested in knowing whether that "form of attack" is real or just a characterization. Can you explain what as perhaps a fictious example is a form of attack?

skieur

 

[manaheim]

I've been off and on this forum for a number of years now. My biggest concern with the whole thing is I feel like I'm actually one of the "old-timers" now... and by no means am I as good as what I consider some of the actual old-timers to be.

Frankly, I'm concerned that twits such as myself have chased off people like Helen, Chiller (who still hangs on tenaciously from one sinewy nearly fleshless limb), and even *gasp* Alpha.

There are a lot of great people on this site with some wonderful talent, even today, and I suppose it's only natural that people will come and go over time... but if we've scared off some of the original clan and someone new and talented comes along and sees the in-fighting, they're likely to keep on moving.

That being said, this very topic has come up a few times since I've been here, too... again, probably just unavoidable and cyclical, but yeesh. Yucky.

And yes, for the record, I know that I am sometimes one of the ones that gets snippy. We all have our days.

 

[Joves]

All the forums I go to go through this to some extent. Lately I have been hanging at Sodahead for the politics. I also go to alot of other forums not related to photography.

 

[uplander]

I've been off and on this forum for a number of years now. My biggest concern with the whole thing is I feel like I'm actually one of the "old-timers" now... and by no means am I as good as what I consider some of the actual old-timers to be.

Frankly, I'm concerned that twits such as myself have chased off people like Helen, Chiller (who still hangs on tenaciously from one sinewy nearly fleshless limb), and even *gasp* Alpha.

There are a lot of great people on this site with some wonderful talent, even today, and I suppose it's only natural that people will come and go over time... but if we've scared off some of the original clan and someone new and talented comes along and sees the in-fighting, they're likely to keep on moving.

That being said, this very topic has come up a few times since I've been here, too... again, probably just unavoidable and cyclical, but yeesh. Yucky.

And yes, for the record, I know that I am sometimes one of the ones that gets snippy. We all have our days.

I hear ya ...everyone snips now and then...I am guilty of this too.

I miss Helen, I hadn't known it till the other day when an old thread popped up as they are wont to do and I read a comment by Helen.
She has an incredible amount of wisdom and delivered it in the most inoffensive way. I wish she was back as I could benefit from her in ways I hadn't the expirience utilize her knowledge before.

 

[kundalini]

Without reading all the others thoughts on this, I will offer mine. If there is duplication in my response, please accept my apologies, but there seems to be a lot of words from there to here.

Is the quality of material for discussion, as well as the discussions on TPF deteriorating?

Yes, but I doubt it's the lack of material.

Why?

Yunguns. (nothing to do with chronology, but more a state of mind or, probably more to the point, a state of being.)

What can be done/you do to improve this?

1 - Councel them. This can be either in a mentor relationship, take them under your wings or be a big brother / sister (Non-Wells type) [should I have included Orson to be perfectly clear?]

2 - Explain to them. How to search, the importance to define a purpose, announce your budget, and FFS, if you (they) start a thread about "What Lens" take the time to put which brand in the title that you (they) are interested in.... if it's for a Canon lens / flash / etc., i have just wasted about 3 seconds of my short time on this earth for no good reason. This includes "Third party for XXX mount body".

3 - Placate them. This may lead to an excruciating amount of your time expended until they finally get it. This is not to be confused with item #1.

4 - Piss them off. They either learn or leave.

5 - Pricks are pricks. Leave them alone and their thoughts will eventually be a flaccid result.

 

[DRoberts]

Yunguns. (nothing to do with chronology, but more a state of mind or, probably more to the point, a state of being.)


1 - Councel them. This can be either in a mentor relationship, take them under your wings or be a big brother / sister (Non-Wells type) [should I have included Orson to be perfectly clear?]

2 - Explain to them. How to search, the importance to define a purpose, announce your budget, and FFS, if you (they) start a thread about "What Lens" take the time to put which brand in the title that you (they) are interested in.... if it's for a Canon lens / flash / etc., i have just wasted about 3 seconds of my short time on this earth for no good reason. This includes "Third party for XXX mount body".

3 - Placate them. This may lead to an excruciating amount of your time expended until they finally get it. This is not to be confused with item #1.

4 - Piss them off. They either learn or leave.

5 - Pricks are pricks. Leave them alone and their thoughts will eventually be a flaccid result.

If the "yunguns" were all the problem then these would be good points to an extent. But in my experience on here it is often some of the more senior members that create and instigate alot of the problems as stated in several of the previous post in this thread. Its almost as if they have risen above the simple folk, and are to good to be bothered with trivial questions about lenses or cameras, etc...But they seem to have the time and energy to write a tirade that belittles the OP of these threads for daring to ask such a question. When in most cases just answering the question would have taken 1/4 of the time and effort than the rebuke did.
These are the people who don't create new threads of interest, or topics "on their level" but rather it seems they sit and lurk for someone to post so that they can attack.

 

[kundalini]

If the "yunguns" were all the problem then these ..........

Yunguns. (nothing to do with chronology, but more a state of mind or, probably more to the point, a state of being.).........

It's not about age as far as I'm concerned.

 

[KvnO]

That by the way is construed as "rude" only to those without experience or those with a limited background in critique. Sounding like a complete ass is the person who does not understand the nature of critique rather than the person who gives it in a professional manner and that means clearly, honestly and what some might consider "rudely".

Don't characterize what you do not fully understand, and don't wrongly assume that professional critique is given with any assumed "superiority".
It is how we learned, and we are passing that on to you.

My point is that it is possible to be straight-forward without being rude. And, when it becomes rude, a "professional" critique becomes anything but (no matter whom it is coming from).

If by "we are passing it on to you", you mean that leaving a comment like "the composition sucks" with no explanation as to why it may, or how it can be improved, then I'd rather learn from someone else.

 

[bjorkfiend]

...

 

[saycheese76]

It is my experience that, though sites such as TPF often form with the underlying notion of providing and receiving support from the like-minded, these sites inevitably become little more than an ego boost. Potographers, experienced and inexperienced alike, need support in their endeavors and I find that extremely lacking here on TPF. Requests for C&C are, nearly always, greeted with a sort of cold precision that I don't believe fits the nature of an art such as this. Critiquing another's work is often less about helping that person improve and more about flexing in front of the pitiful noobs.

Photography is frustrating -- very frustrating. When folks request C&C I think they are often looking for more than simply a technical critique and could stand a bit of encouragement along with it. If you take a look through the newbie section I'm sure you will see a lot of noobs encouraging other noobs. This is great but where is the emotional support from the senior members? You are the folks that new members are hoping to hear from.

Above all else I think it is important to realize that TPF isn't a technical manual -- it's a community.

I agree with this. I am going to make a concerted effort to post more replies on the C&C posts.:thumbup:

 

[fwellers]

There are at least two Leica shooters that are active here in the TPF (myself and Iron Flatline). Feel free to start topics and ask questions..

Quick answer to your off topic question: Not too many alternatives...
1) Epson R-d1 (used)
2) Panasonic G1 with adapter for M-mount Leica lenses
3) Voigtlander makes Mmount and Leica screwmount lenses (optional screw to M-mount adapter) that is VERY affordable.
4) High end P&S cameras (Canon G9/G10 being a leader in the group)

Each option has limitations.

OOps. Sorry about that. I read the original post wrong ( in my addled mind ), and was thinking he was asking for some topics.
But aside from that, thanks for your advice.

 

[fwellers]

It is my experience that, though sites such as TPF often form with the underlying notion of providing and receiving support from the like-minded, these sites inevitably become little more than an ego boost. Potographers, experienced and inexperienced alike, need support in their endeavors and I find that extremely lacking here on TPF. Requests for C&C are, nearly always, greeted with a sort of cold precision that I don't believe fits the nature of an art such as this. Critiquing another's work is often less about helping that person improve and more about flexing in front of the pitiful noobs.

Photography is frustrating -- very frustrating. When folks request C&C I think they are often looking for more than simply a technical critique and could stand a bit of encouragement along with it. If you take a look through the newbie section I'm sure you will see a lot of noobs encouraging other noobs. This is great but where is the emotional support from the senior members? You are the folks that new members are hoping to hear from.

Above all else I think it is important to realize that TPF isn't a technical manual -- it's a community.

+1. Well said.

I'd like to also say one thing to those who mentioned attacks and arguments. Kindof half true, a little funny maybe.
You all should know that a little 'dynamic tension' actually adds to the composition !! )

 

[skieur]

My point is that it is possible to be straight-forward without being rude. And, when it becomes rude, a "professional" critique becomes anything but (no matter whom it is coming from).

If by "we are passing it on to you", you mean that leaving a comment like "the composition sucks" with no explanation as to why it may, or how it can be improved, then I'd rather learn from someone else.

Well, I can't say that I have seen "the composition sucks" comment as yet, but I would not characterize it as rude, but rather a demonstration of "intellectual and photographic challenge" as well as limited vocabulary.

At the same time, someone should have pointed out to the poster that the comment was inappropriately expressed.

On the other side of the coin, it is somewhat understandable that some have difficulty in diplomatically pointing out that a photo lacks any centre of interest, no thought to framing or camera viewpoint, is flat with no perspective, and would be deleted by most experienced photographers. Moreover, no amount of improvement in postprocessing would help either.
I am sure that some would see comments like the above as "rude" as well.

skieur