Thought

[skieur]

It is my experience that, though sites such as TPF often form with the underlying notion of providing and receiving support from the like-minded, these sites inevitably become little more than an ego boost. Potographers, experienced and inexperienced alike, need support in their endeavors and I find that extremely lacking here on TPF. Requests for C&C are, nearly always, greeted with a sort of cold precision that I don't believe fits the nature of an art such as this. Critiquing another's work is often less about helping that person improve and more about flexing in front of the pitiful noobs.

Photography is frustrating -- very frustrating. When folks request C&C I think they are often looking for more than simply a technical critique and could stand a bit of encouragement along with it. If you take a look through the newbie section I'm sure you will see a lot of noobs encouraging other noobs. This is great but where is the emotional support from the senior members? You are the folks that new members are hoping to hear from.

Above all else I think it is important to realize that TPF isn't a technical manual -- it's a community.

The unfortunate part of "noobs encouraging noobs" is that it is too often false encouragement when someone says "Great shot" or "Well done" to some shot with a considerable list of technical and compositional problems.

Critique by the way is made up of 2 parts: technique (the technical side) and composition (the artistic side), so anyone asking for Critique should expect technical comments.

When C&C is asked for, by the way, "senior members" often find that the poster is looking for praise not Critique. That is demonstrated when the poster accepts the "great shot" comments and says that he/she likes the out-of-focus main subject, lack of detail in the shadow areas, washed out skin tones etc in the critique of the senior member. It is easy for us to say to ourselves: Why bother? They are not serious about learning anything?

skieur

 

[Overread]

I suppose a lot of this is linking back to that long talk we had about critiquing methods Skieur.

In the end all I can say is that some people (be they masters or beginners) need to have better language in communicating with others their thoughts on a photo without sounding overly negative about what has been created.

ps on th subject of Helen I thought she left right about the time we had the site change over and it was over the confusing messages being sent around as well as keeping members in the dark about things till they happened.

 

[abraxas]

Is the quality of material for discussion, as well as the discussions on TPF deteriorating? Why? What can be done/you do to improve this?

^^^ the OP.

Not to throw a wet blanket on those of you with ADD, but I hate to see this turn into yet another fruitless discussion about critique. Start a thread or something.

 

[Overread]

however I suppose this just outlines one reason why we are not (possibly) getting the other forms of discussion that some are looking for since many are newer photographers talks on image/photography critique are what they are after - hence why we get some many talks and debates on it.
In the end though - myself - I still see that the only solution is to start discuessions about what you want and see where things go from there

 

[kundalini]

Not to throw a wet blanket on those of you with ADD, but I hate to see this turn into yet another fruitless discussion about critique. Start a thread or something.

I made an effort dude, however, there are many that prefer to respond to hot topics. :er:

My suggestion is to watch The View instead. Babble is babble, regardless.

 

[bjorkfiend]

...

 

[bjorkfiend]

...

 

[manaheim]

I think I'm on course with the OP here, but let me know if I'm not, abrax...

The suggestion about FAQs (as I'm characterizing them) has come up and been shot down a couple times since I've been on. I think the position of the board is that many things are just people's opinions, so how do you justify saying that any given one is the correct one. Fair, but frustrating since I think a lot of people do get annoyed at having to see the same question come up time and again. Totally understandable that new people would ask old questions, but I think we all wish we could simply say "Oh there is a great thread on that very topic in the FAQ section... go read that and come ask questions after."

The reason why I think this is on course with the OP is because the general frustration that people feel might be lessened by a functionality such as this, which would lead to fewer snappier retorts, and therefore a more easy-flowing open discourse.

I wonder, perhaps, about a more heavily moderated section??? Hey moderators... what about something like this? Have a section for "Guide Threads" where a formal question like "What camera should I buy?" is posted and members of the community can post their thoughts on the topic, but the thread is HEAVILY moderated so that non-factual information is framed appropriately, dogfights are removed, etc. The post/thread can be updated over time with new information, etc. That way people have the FAQ-style functionality, but the opinions of the community as a whole are captured.

Just an idea.

 

[craig]

Yes the quality of the discussions is running down hill. I think we can improve the situation by considering this forum (and photography in general) as a community. Everyone seems to be interested in making money and personal gear purchases. If we look at the bigger picture we can see that we are here to share thoughts and ideas. The stickies are out there. The mods are out there. Only improvements that can be made is looking inward.

Love & Bass

 

[abraxas]

Yes ...

...looking inward.
...

I went out for a few hours today and got in the weather and stood in a foot deep water to get some stormy-type shots. Puts things in perspective. Feed your head.

 

[usayit]

Yes the quality of the discussions is running down hill. I think we can improve the situation by considering this forum (and photography in general) as a community. Everyone seems to be interested in making money and personal gear purchases. If we look at the bigger picture we can see that we are here to share thoughts and ideas. The stickies are out there. The mods are out there. Only improvements that can be made is looking inward.

Craig has a point. My first post to this thread compared the early days of the TPF to that of a town and now it is more like the big city; a lot more to offer both good and bad. Residents of that small town are setting high expectations for what has become of the TPF. They might not like who they see "immigrating" into our city. I find it easier to deal with the changes if I treat the TPF more like the neighborhood bar; serious discussions do occur.. heated debates spark.. and not so serious discussions are fun. C&C don't have to be so technical.... those with little experience can play along in the discussions and learn from the input of those more experienced.

Just like a neighborhood bar.... you have to develop thick skin.. and you don't have to like everyone who walks through the door. I've had my disagreements with a few (abraxas and the late Bifurcator to name a couple) but I wouldn't want them to leave or banned. The neighborhood bar would be boring....

I agree... the only changes that need to be made are inward.

 

[rubbertree]

belittle them by telling them to do a search of the archives rather than bringing up this topic for the umpteenth time and so on and so on ...

I just want to address this as I belong to several other (photo and non-photo related) forums and this issue is brought up time and time again.
IMO, telling someone do to a search is not belittling them. 9 times out of 10 you can find the answer you are looking for with a simple search. People who think it is faster for them to just start a new post are not considering that the other members time is just as valuable as theirs. By saying "it was just quicker" or "you could have answered me in the same amount of time it took you to say do a search" indicats that poster thinks their time is more valuable than mine (or yours).
Also, often when you have a forum of this magnitude, you have people join, post their question that sometimes has already been asked that day even and then leave without so much as a thank you.
I see nothing wrong with telling someone who has asked a commonly asked question to do a search. It should be added to the UA, just as a tip to newbies to the forum or to the hobby itself, that doing a search first is proper netettique. Of course if you do a search and don't find the answer, by all means ask away. But at least try to help yourself first.

 

[TheOtherBob]

People who think it is faster for them to just start a new post are not considering that the other members time is just as valuable as theirs. By saying "it was just quicker" or "you could have answered me in the same amount of time it took you to say do a search" indicats that poster thinks their time is more valuable than mine (or yours).

I'm not sure I understand that, because I don't see how anyone has wasted anyone else's time. This is the internet -- no one on here is doing anything other than wasting a little of their time.

If someone chooses to go to a forum and read a bunch of posts that they find repetitive or uninteresting...well, I've got to wonder why they were taking the time to read them in the first place. This is particularly true if they're reading the beginner forum, which is (as the name suggests) full of beginners. If an experienced forumite goes into there and clicks on a thread entitled "What DSLR?," I've got to think they know what to expect from it.

Now, if you're finding that you're surfing the professional forums, clicking on what look like interesting topics, and finding that they all nonetheless have nothing but beginners asking "What DSLR?"...then, ok, I'll grant you that that would be a problem. But I don't think that's the case. Similarly, if you were finding that interesting posts were being drowned out or pushed off the bottom of the board by a flurry of repetitious posting -- again, that'd be a problem if it were going on, but I don't see that it is.

In the end, the internet is not anyone's job -- no one has to read every post that's posted (except, perhaps, a dedicated moderator or two). Each of us chooses to spend our time wherever we feel most engaged and interested -- if that means hanging out in the beginner forum and answering the same question over and over, great. If it means expressly not hanging out there...again, great. Either way, we're all here to waste a little time...so waste it however you see fit.