Umbrella effect outdoor?

[SlimPaul]

Hey,

I'm planning on buying an SB-600 soon, for some more creative shots outdoor. I was wondering what I could use with the speedlight to soften the light. I know I can get an umbrella pretty cheap, but that's not really going to work too well in the field. I've also read about diffusers (like omnibounce) but I'm not sure if it's going to bring the best results. If you know any good ways to achieve great lighting from one flash without any umbrellas please let me know. Help appreciated.

Thanks, Paul

 

[Buckster]

What is it you're planning to shoot, and why won't an umbrella work?

 

[Garbz]

You need to increase the size of your light source. The Omnibounce does this to a very very very tiny extent compared to an umbrella.

As Buckster said why wouldn't it work? A fast shutter speed to bring down the ambient light, and a silver reflective umbrella for maximum efficiency is something a lot of other people use just fine with their Speedlights.

 

[Double H]

SB800 through a 40" umbrella camera left, I think I was at about 1/2 power, fired by pocket wizard plus IIs. Works great for me!

 

[IgsEMT]

Umbrellas are great both indoors and outdoors. The only issue I can imagine you might have using one, is time. My kid is 2 and setting up one (2minutes) means she lost the interest thus at home I don't use it much.
Omnibounce is really nice indoors but leaves ugly shadows behind the subject if you're subject is close to the wall.
My solution is foam paper and shooting through it at around full power. It softens up the light really nice, costs about $0.99 thus if gets destroyed its only 99cents. You can get one at Arts&Crafts store.

Good Luck

 

[Buckster]

Umbrellas are great both indoors and outdoors. The only issue I can imagine you might have using one, is time. My kid is 2 and setting up one (2minutes) means she lost the interest thus at home I don't use it much.
Omnibounce is really nice indoors but leaves ugly shadows behind the subject if you're subject is close to the wall.
My solution is foam paper and shooting through it at around full power. It softens up the light really nice, costs about $0.99 thus if gets destroyed its only 99cents. You can get one at Arts&Crafts store.

Good Luck

I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.

The stofens and other small-head style diffusers work okay if you're bouncing off ceilings and walls, because they effectively turn ceilings and walls into very large sources of light, relative to the subject. Outdoors, without a ceiling and walls to bounce off of, they aren't nearly as effective, and it's usually necessary to break out a bigger panel of some sort. The easiest, quickest and least expensive of those is the umbrella.

 

[NateS]

Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light. You don't really need an omnibounce for that.

Outdoors, the omni bounce does very little except rob usable flash power. I did a test on some outdoor macros awhile back and I got identical harshness/softness from using the omnibounce versus no diffuser.

Indoors the only time that I find the omni bounce useful is if the ceilings are too tall to bounce well, or if you need a bit of catch light forward for the eyes when bouncing to the ceiling. I personally think a bounce card style "diffuser" to throw some light forward would be better indoors.....my problem is that I swictch between portrait and landscape modes a lot when shooting with kind of throws the bounce card type out the window (doesn't work so well in portrait).

I used to use the omnibounce outside ALL the time. Now I just use the bare flash ....or just get out the umbrella.

 

[Buckster]

Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light. You don't really need an omnibounce for that.

While you don't need it, it does help spread the light more than the direct light without diffusion by bouncing off in all directions, not just in the direction the light is pointing, and every bit helps.

Outdoors, the omni bounce does very little except rob usable flash power.

For the situation that I think he's going for (portraiture), we're in agreement, though I've seen Joe McNally use them outdoors, stating that while they don't help much, they do help some, and he'll take it as a quick resort. Again, it goes to the "every bit helps" idea.

I did a test on some outdoor macros awhile back and I got identical harshness/softness from using the omnibounce versus no diffuser.

I've done the same tests, and found that there was enough of a difference in diffusing and softening the light for me to use them for my macro shooting.

Indoors the only time that I find the omni bounce useful is if the ceilings are too tall to bounce well, or if you need a bit of catch light forward for the eyes when bouncing to the ceiling. I personally think a bounce card style "diffuser" to throw some light forward would be better indoors.....

I'm getting better results with them than you are, I guess, because I see a noticeable difference between using them and not.

my problem is that I swictch between portrait and landscape modes a lot when shooting with kind of throws the bounce card type out the window (doesn't work so well in portrait).

Twist your flash head sideways and then when you go into portrait mode just flip it 90 degrees.

Gary Fong demonstrates the technique in this vid:

I used to use the omnibounce outside ALL the time. Now I just use the bare flash ....or just get out the umbrella.

When using anything more than natural light, I prefer to use an umbrella, softbox or even a panel, even outdoors, except for macros as noted above. My last resort in any situation is a bare flash, but that's just me.

 

[SlimPaul]

Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.

P.S. Just in case I couldn't bring an umbrella with me, do you suggest getting lightsphere over the omnibounce?

 

[Double H]

Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.

A single stand and umbrella are not that much work, and if you are shooting a group, there's always someone willing to help you out. And a stand can get higher than someone's arm. I use one anytime I shoot portraits/wedding formals outdoors, and I have never had to carry my stand.

 

[Buckster]

Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.

That's a great solution. Nothing easier and more versatile than a light stand you can move and reposition with just your voice! (assistants are great!)

Something to keep in mind on any occasions that you do actually use a stand with umbrella outdoors though - weight it down with sandbags, bricks, rocks, backpack or whatever else you can find, so that a breeze doesn't catch the umbrella like a sail and blow it over and bend up your umbrella ribs or stem or something.

 

[NateS]

Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light. You don't really need an omnibounce for that.

While you don't need it, it does help spread the light more than the direct light without diffusion by bouncing off in all directions, not just in the direction the light is pointing, and every bit helps.

Outdoors, the omni bounce does very little except rob usable flash power.

For the situation that I think he's going for (portraiture), we're in agreement, though I've seen Joe McNally use them outdoors, stating that while they don't help much, they do help some, and he'll take it as a quick resort. Again, it goes to the "every bit helps" idea.


I've done the same tests, and found that there was enough of a difference in diffusing and softening the light for me to use them for my macro shooting.


I'm getting better results with them than you are, I guess, because I see a noticeable difference between using them and not.

my problem is that I swictch between portrait and landscape modes a lot when shooting with kind of throws the bounce card type out the window (doesn't work so well in portrait).

Twist your flash head sideways and then when you go into portrait mode just flip it 90 degrees.

Gary Fong demonstrates the technique in this vid:

I used to use the omnibounce outside ALL the time. Now I just use the bare flash ....or just get out the umbrella.

When using anything more than natural light, I prefer to use an umbrella, softbox or even a panel, even outdoors, except for macros as noted above. My last resort in any situation is a bare flash, but that's just me.

Omnibounce works fine for me indoors, I just lose too much light above and too much gets sent forward leaving me with more shadows behind my subject than by using only the flash head itself with bouncing.

Outdoors....well, you really aren't getting a larger source of light by much with the omnibounce. I think the biggest difference you see is with the fact that you are getting less light from the flash which is obviously going to make it not as harsh. I've gotten nearly identical results from just using my flash at -1.7 without the flash as with 0 and the omnibounce.

For the macro tests....I did the exact same shots with and without the omnibounce....literally no difference. Not sure why we are getting different results. I use my shoot through umbrella on macros when I can and THAT makes a huge difference for softening the light on bugs and flowers.

With a bounce card type (not the Gary Fong type) diffuser, you are still in a pickle when you twist the flash head to bounce the celiing. You end up with the bounce card pointing light toward a side wall instead of in front when you go into portrait orientation. No way around this without twisting the bounce card on the flash head each time you swith orientation.



All of that said, there is no harm in using the omnibounce outdoors unless you are having problems with getting enough flash power. If you are getting enough light output out of it and think it's helping, might as well keep using it.


Edit: Just watched the video and his style of bounce card is different than the ones I usually see. I'll have to check into that.

 

[IgsEMT]

I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.

I never said I use it on camera, Topic here is using an accessory light source thus it is a suggestion for what I use on the fly - I also never said I do that when shooting a wedding. For wedding, when shooting outdoor portraits, I use shoot-through umbrella and/or a softbox.
But when I'm out in the park with my kid and taking pictures of her and IF I get to convince her to give me few poses, foam paper does the job on the fly. It also works well indoors, on the fly.

 

[Buckster]

I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.

I never said I use it on camera,

That's true, but you did say that it was an alternative to spending two minutes setting up an umbrella. I took that to mean that it was an alternative to setting up a light stand. No biggie, I've been wrong before. Explain it to me.

Topic here is using an accessory light source thus it is a suggestion for what I use on the fly

Right - specifically what to use OUTDOORS. So, tell us all about it.

I also never said I do that when shooting a wedding.

Did I say you did?

For wedding, when shooting outdoor portraits, I use shoot-through umbrella and/or a softbox.

Wow. What a coinky-dink!!

But when I'm out in the park with my kid and taking pictures of her and IF I get to convince her to give me few poses, foam paper does the job on the fly. It also works well indoors, on the fly.

And I ask again - how? It's not big enough in relation to the subject to work well at all. It's light physics 101, but hey, I'm always ready to learn something new, so fill me in on how that works.

Thanks in advance. :thumbup:

 

[IgsEMT]

oh Buckster, you're hilarious
Here's my little story: Few months ago, I asked opinion about Gary Fong's products and got some mixed opinions, as well as link to this site DIY Reflector-Diffuser. After reviewing it and purchasing this funky material, I liked the results but it wasn't replacement to umbrella. So again, I looked at fong's site and saw a product that he has where you're shooting through. So i tried my $0.99 hardcore investment to shoot it through. Unlike the design, mine is simple Velcro on the bottom to fasten to the flash. And after few experiments shooting indoors I was pretty impressed by illumination and softness compared to omnibouce. I then took it outdoors and although it is WORTHLESS for full length adult, it does the job relatively decent on a two year old.
The light-stand you mention. At a wedding, and such I work with an assistant and he is holding a quantum flash rigged to a remote. In the park with my wife and a two year old, she's holding sb800 mounted with my design while camera is set to commander mode.

I would love to hear some of your lighting techniques. Thats why I love photography, very subjective and always room to learn and improveeacesign: