Utopia of Critique Forum

[elsaspet]

OK, I am a person of lists, so I came up with a short list of things that need to be accomplished in order to make this happen.

1. Forum and Design
2. Set of rules for submissions
3. Critique Board Members
4. How Board Members are Selected and How Often

There are others I am sure that I left out, but this gives us a starting point.

What say we start with #2, since most of us don't know exactly what is available with the forum software and what the Admins and Mods will be able to do.

We can work up a set of rules for the submissions and hammer that part out. Then move on from there. That way we are moving forward through all the things that need to be accomplished, without bouncing from one thing to another.

As for the rules of submission, here are the parts that I personally really like:
1. Once monthy submission limits
2. Anon
3. Details as to the why, how, what and skill level
4. OTE or no OTE, depending on what the poster is looking for, and provided details of any edits are well spelled out.

As for the potential panel,
1. I agree with Hertz. With the stipulation that anyone interested MUST have work posted somewhere on this forum.
2. There are limits set on how long a juror serves. I like the idea of quarterly.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

say what they like the way they want to say it.

But I think if you are having guidelines for people submitting you must have guidelines for people doing the crit.
You can say exactly the same thing in several different ways. One way could be extremely offensive or discouraging, which is not what you want in a crit.
It is a very simple matter to rephrase so that it is acceptable without compromising what is being said.
A set of guidelines could be: crits must be reasoned and considered, phrased simply and non-abrasively with positive suggestions as to how the problem highlighted might be solved.

If the panel can tell members what they expect from a submission I think it only fair that members are told what they can expect from a crit.

 

[elsaspet]

But I think if you are having guidelines for people submitting you must have guidelines for people doing the crit.
You can say exactly the same thing in several different ways. One way could be extremely offensive or discouraging, which is not what you want in a crit.
It is a very simple matter to rephrase so that it is acceptable without compromising what is being said.
A set of guidelines could be: crits must be reasoned and considered, phrased simply and non-abrasively with positive suggestions as to how the problem highlighted might be solved.

If the panel can tell members what they expect from a submission I think it only fair that members are told what they can expect from a crit.

^^^^^^^
Bravo!

 

[smcaskil]

As for the rules of submission, here are the parts that I personally really like:
1. Once monthy submission limits
2. Anon
3. Details as to the why, how, what and skill level
4. OTE or no OTE, depending on what the poster is looking for, and provided details of any edits are well spelled out.

OK, here is the first stab at the rules for submissions.

I am not sure how we could submit anonymously, but then again as I said before, I am not sure all this forum software allows, so there may be a way.

As for #3, I wanted to flesh that out in more detail.

1. Include the picture (obviously)

2. Include the skill set (I say this needs to be a list if possible, so folks can't just put garbage in there that makes no sense and so we have clear definitions.)
a. Professional (Either trained or being paid for photography)
b. Pro-Am (You have done a few small shoots, possibly for free, but still are more amateur at the moment)
c. Amateur / Hobbist
d. New Photographer

3. Include in your request things that you possibly already know are wrong with the picture that were possibly out of your control (clothing of the model, weather conditions that made for lighting issues, etc.)

4. Specific critique requests. Something along the line of 'I'd like to know how I could have posed this person differently to account for the lack of space.' This won't limit the kind of critique they receive, but will make sure if they have a specific question, it is answered if possible.

5. Information on what they were trying to convey from the photograph. This means things like, 'I wanted it to look slighly out of focus to give it a more fill in the blank look.' That way they don't get a critique about something they meant to "do wrong."

6. The OKE / Not OKE is a good idea. Sometimes it is great to see what someone else could have done in editing. The one problem I see is that many folks, especially new photogrpahers, don't have the software required to do the edits, so you need to still include a critique, not just 'here's how I fixed your picture.'

Anyone else got something to add or think some of my stuff is a complete waste of time. LOL

 

[elsaspet]

OK, here is the first stab at the rules for submissions.

I am not sure how we could submit anonymously, but then again as I said before, I am not sure all this forum software allows, so there may be a way.

As for #3, I wanted to flesh that out in more detail.

1. Include the picture (obviously)

2. Include the skill set (I say this needs to be a list if possible, so folks can't just put garbage in there that makes no sense and so we have clear definitions.)
a. Professional (Either trained or being paid for photography)
b. Pro-Am (You have done a few small shoots, possibly for free, but still are more amateur at the moment)
c. Amateur / Hobbist
d. New Photographer

3. Include in your request things that you possibly already know are wrong with the picture that were possibly out of your control (clothing of the model, weather conditions that made for lighting issues, etc.)

4. Specific critique requests. Something along the line of 'I'd like to know how I could have posed this person differently to account for the lack of space.' This won't limit the kind of critique they receive, but will make sure if they have a specific question, it is answered if possible.

5. Information on what they were trying to convey from the photograph. This means things like, 'I wanted it to look slighly out of focus to give it a more fill in the blank look.' That way they don't get a critique about something they meant to "do wrong."

6. The OKE / Not OKE is a good idea. Sometimes it is great to see what someone else could have done in editing. The one problem I see is that many folks, especially new photogrpahers, don't have the software required to do the edits, so you need to still include a critique, not just 'here's how I fixed your picture.'

Anyone else got something to add or think some of my stuff is a complete waste of time. LOL

I'm not sure I'd let people put in stuff like, "I hated her clothes, not my fault". That to me is an excuse from the getgo.

I like the idea that Archangle had: lighting used, camera used, settings....that type of thing. Then the panel knows what they are looking at in most cases (bad lighting conditions/sucky clothing). A bunch of reasons why they coulda woulda done better doesn't help with what they had to work with at that moment. No one has the perfect setup, and we all could do better in a perfect situation. That's a given.
JMO

 

[abraxas]

I think Chiller's example is really dead on about good crits.
As for the bad crits, I'd pull out handfulls if the old crit forum was still in place.

I don't remember who it was who made the comment, but one example I can give you from recent memory was in response to a photo for review that New England Moments put up.
I'm paraphrasing here, but basically it was, "Jeeze, not another BARN!"

But there were tons like that.

And specifically, I believe that was response to an abusive post - ie; how many barns etc., by the same photographer, have to be critiqued- day in and day out (no limit)? Not a bash as far as I can see- a difference of opinion.

I think the priorities as outlined need to be readjusted.

Briefly, the current items, but in the following order; 4, 1, 2 & 3.

HvR anticipates apathy, which ideally should fall victim to campaigning. Realistically, how about a list of volunteers - 1 dozen or so that take sequential turns for a limited time (1 week?) . No exceptions, you volunteer, you get a turn -no punitive exclusions. As I said in another thread, it takes ALL kinds. Got to loosen up and take this with that. Without elections or blind fairness the system becomes corrupt and falls into an autocracy, or as is glibbly laughed off, a dictatorship (even if it is collective/clique driven). BTW, that's the first thing a forming dictatorship will deny, is that it is a dictatorship. Appointments by hat depend on who's hat. Just my thoughts.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

No one has the perfect setup, and we all could do better in a perfect situation.

Not so, sweetie. You can have the best equipment in the world and still produce poop if you don't know what you are doing :twisted:

I really think it should be kept simple but pertinent (and relevant) for the info to go with images.
EXIF Data if digital/exposure details for film if known.
Any supplementary lights/reflectors.
Reason for taking the picture (snapshot/fun/for client and so on)
What you were trying to do/achieve.

This last is actually the most helpful as it helps to explain why the person thinks they need help and gives the person doing the crit a guide as to what advice to give.
It also helps focus the person submitting and gets them thinking about the image.

 

[elsaspet]

And specifically, I believe that was response to an abusive post - ie; how many barns etc., by the same photographer, have to be critiqued- day in and day out (no limit)? Not a bash as far as I can see- a difference of opinion.

The man shoots barns and New England Landscapes. That's like telling me, "Damn, it's not a freaking bride again, is it?"

LOL. See what I mean?

 

[smcaskil]

I'm not sure I'd let people put in stuff like, "I hated her clothes, not my fault". That to me is an excuse from the getgo.

I like the idea that Archangle had: lighting used, camera used, settings....that type of thing. Then the panel knows what they are looking at in most cases (bad lighting conditions/sucky clothing). A bunch of reasons why they coulda woulda done better doesn't help with what they had to work with at that moment. No one has the perfect setup, and we all could do better in a perfect situation. That's a given.

You are probably right, that folks might use that as a way out of actually being critiqued. They will offer up reasons why this and that was not perfect, thereby eliminating anything from being pointed to as a problem.

I also left out the stuff about the equipment, since that make a world of difference. Someone with an Olympus D560 (my old P&S) is a lot more limited than someone with a D300 and a studio lighting setup.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

no punitive exclusions. As I said in another thread, it takes ALL kinds. Got to loosen up and take this with that.

Fair enough. I suggested the option of people being able to object to proposed panel members in the same spirit.
If you say to people 'you are having this person whether you like it or not' then you are being dictatorial, surely.
Allowing people to voice their objections gives them a say in the process, which is democratic.
You must let people feel that they have a say in the process or it will fail.

 

[elsaspet]

HvR anticipates apathy, which ideally should fall victim to campaigning. Realistically, how about a list of volunteers - 1 dozen or so that take sequential turns for a limited time (1 week?) . No exceptions, you volunteer, you get a turn -no punitive exclusions.

The problem with that, IMO, is that you get the same guys/gals who opined on all the posts for review in the first place. And while I know it's not popular, or politically correct, I want to know who is reviewing me. I want to know what THEIR experiences and knowledge is.

If it's someone who has never posted a photo, or consistantly posts photos with severe problems of their own, I might listen to them about whether they feel "connected" to the photo, but I wouldn't want them to paraphrase what they just read about loop lighting, in regards to my outdoor lighting, because they just picked up a book somewhere. Ya know?

So as far as I would be concerned I'd at least set SOME stipulations on who could review. I think the bare minimum of that requirement should be showing there own work, at some point, somewhere, on this forum.

 

[abraxas]

The man shoots barns and New England Landscapes. That's like telling me, "Damn, it's not a freaking bride again, is it?"

LOL. See what I mean?

Poor theoretic example on your part. But I think you fail to see other's POV's as you accuse others of. That's not bad, but difficult.

 

[elsaspet]

You are probably right, that folks might use that as a way out of actually being critiqued. They will offer up reasons why this and that was not perfect, thereby eliminating anything from being pointed to as a problem.

I also left out the stuff about the equipment, since that make a world of difference. Someone with an Olympus D560 (my old P&S) is a lot more limited than someone with a D300 and a studio lighting setup.

Exactly, I think that's why it's important to know what they are using.

 

[abraxas]

So as far as I would be concerned I'd at least set SOME stipulations on who could review. I think the bare minimum of that requirement should be showing there own work, at some point, somewhere, on this forum.

Why should showing their work make a difference? Your stipulation is your single vote, same as anyone elses. Maybe a requirement of time as a member or in combination of number of posts.

 

[smcaskil]

OK, I removed the part about letting folks give reasons why something was wrong and included Hertz's ideas.

1. Include the picture (obviously)

2. Include the skill set (I say this needs to be a list if possible, so folks can't just put garbage in there that makes no sense and so we have clear definitions.)
a. Professional (Either trained or being paid for photography)
b. Pro-Am (You have done a few small shoots, possibly for free, but still are more amateur at the moment)
c. Amateur / Hobbist
d. New Photographer


3. Specific critique requests. Something along the line of 'I'd like to know how I could have posed this person differently to account for the lack of space.' This won't limit the kind of critique they receive, but will make sure if they have a specific question, it is answered if possible.

4. Information on what they were trying to convey from the photograph or why / for whom they took the picture. This means things like, 'I wanted it to look slighly out of focus to give it a more fill in the blank look.' That way they don't get a critique about something they meant to "do wrong." This would also include Hertz's ideas of Reason and What you were trying to do.

5. The OKE / Not OKE is a good idea. Sometimes it is great to see what someone else could have done in editing. The one problem I see is that many folks, especially new photogrpahers, don't have the software required to do the edits, so you need to still include a critique, not just 'here's how I fixed your picture.'

6. EXIF Data or details if using film

7. Type of equipment, especially lighting used

Anyone else have something that they'd like to add / subtract / change?