Vote Max Bloom Critique Mod

[Chiller]

Happy New Year everyone!

Vote for me. I'll kiss your babies.

Whew....Im so glad Im 358 years old and cant spawn any kids.

 

[Sideburns]

I voted ambivalent. I don't know for sure if I'd be happy.

Max reminds me of a guy I used to work with. He'd yell at me, and then I'd go to one of the other guys, and they'd say "Oh, Mark's just an asshole, don't worry about it".

Well....no...I think I should worry about it...just because he's an asshole ALL the time, doesn't mean I should accept it. Just because his personality sucks, doesn't mean it's acceptable...lol.

Now I'm not saying that you're an asshole, Max...I'm just making a comparison.

"Oh, don't worry about Max...he's just like that..."

Well, sometimes you get a little overboard. Personally I am split. Some of your posts are really helpful. Some of them aren't. Some of them seem very knowledgeable...some of them don't.

Oh, and that's not even mentioning the ego. I know, I know...I might have somewhat of an ego sometimes, as well. But I try to keep it to myself if I can. Sometimes I feel as though you're a guy you just met telling me about "how awesome this party was last night!"...even though we all know you were at your mother's house last night...

I think you should make a point of trying to be more OBVIOUSLY helpful. While most of your critique is helpful....it's only helpful if you get past the "WHAT did he just say to me?!" factor. Ya know what I mean? Then, perhaps you could become a mod. I personally don't mind you. You're an alright guy...just you have to work on your people skills.

 

[salexander867]

I have been on various forums for several years. Right now I am on 4 motorcyle and three photo forums. In all of that time on all of those forums, I have only put one person on an ignore list. Guess who that is... It has been a much more enjoyable experience here since doing so.

I actually felt bad about doing it at first and took him off after 2 days. But then the very next post I read had him being a typical a$$ and blasting someone for not agreeing with his brand of "wisdom". Back on the ignore list he went.

If his behavior is the type that this forum wants to promote by making him a mod, I will have to find a new favorite photo forum.

EDIT - Don't bother replying to this message Max because, as mentioned, you are stll on my ignore list. But don't worry, I can just imagine what you might say.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Max Bloom's response raises a number of questions. The two most important are:
1) Why has the re-structuring of the critique forum failed?
2) What is to be the future of the critique forum?

With regards to (1) I believe it failed because the 're-structuring' was badly thought out and several of the critique Mods had a p*ss-poor idea of the type of critique required. The whole thing appeared more geared to pandering to certain people's egos than providing help and support.
It must be remembered that there is a vast range of skills and abilities present amongst the membership here so you can't take a 'one size fits all' approach to critique. A good critique should be tailored to the individual and adjusted to their level. You can't critique a beginner in the same way you would critique a professional, and vice versa. But from what I saw going on in there (not that I went in there much because it depressed me) this distinction was quite often ignored.
Which brings us to the most important reason as to why the thing failed.
What was the critique forum in it's new guise trying to do, exactly?
There did not (and does not) appear to be any clear idea on this.
Is it there to help and encourage people to improve their photography? Or is it there to impose a few people's ideas onto others; that is, try to push people into taking pictures the way the people doing the crit think it should be done?
With Max and Motcon it was quite clearly the latter. Both have quite strong views on what a picture should be and how it should be taken. Which is strange because neither of them appear to apply the same rules and criteria to their own work. It became a case of 'do as I say not as I do'.
What happens in that kind of situation is that the people who just want a little help and advice at a low level keep away, whilst the rest polarise and their attitudes harden.
The result? Motocon has gone off in a sulk, Max is here trying to justify himself and the critique forum is going down the toilet.

This brings us to (2). What is to be the future of the critique forum?
In it's present state it is pretty much a waste of space. Re-vamping it will only work if a clear idea of exactly what the role of the critique forum is to be is decided upon. It has to have a clear purpose, not just be a soap-box, and it must be a purpose that most on here consider worthwhile and useful - and it has to be properly 'policed'. This means having Mods with knowledge, sympathy, flexibility, commitment and good interpersonal skills. These people are rare and even if you could find some who were willing to do it they wouldn't be able to do it for long. Their real lives would always get in the way.
So the other option is to dispense with these forums altogether and just integrate them into the other forums. Crits can take place in there just as well as anywhere else.
To be honest, I think this latter course is best. Two different attempts have now been made to get the crit forum to work and both have failed for one reason or another.
Maybe it's time to kiss it's sorry ass goodbye.

And before anyone starts arguing with me, all I have done is state the situation bluntly and honestly. And raised some points for others to consider.
I couldn't care less about what happens to it so I won't get drawn into any kind of argument one way or the other.

 

[Helen B]

Herz has said many of the things I was struggling to articulate, and with a depth of experience on TPF that I lack.

The 'critical analysis' here does appear to be formulaic. There appears to be little attempt to understand the photographer's intentions then direct the comments, advice and encouragement accordingly. This often takes a lot of effort, and I'm not surprised that it doesn't happen.

So far, nothing that Max has written has persuaded me that he will change or influence anything for the better, or that he would be a good moderator of a critique forum.

Best,
Helen

 

[Alex_B]

OK, since this now became a discussion thread regarding the critique forum.

When all those discussions regarding the critique forum started, I quickly got pretty annoyed with what was going on there and basically stayed away from that part of the forum (maybe 15 posts there during the last year?).


It would be nice if one day a solution was found which allows for serious critique, without any fascist ideology of enforcing ideas. But also without getting only the standard "I like it" or "I don't like it" phrases. Those are OK for the galleries, and I myself use those phrases, but I know they are a pain in those moments when you want to improve.

 

[Alex_B]

So far, nothing that Max has written has persuaded me that he will change or influence anything for the better, or that he would be a good moderator of a critique forum.

The current voting situation (and discussion in this thread) demonstrates that he polarises alot (18 "yes" vs 18 "no", both sides with very strong ideas.). Hence he is not a good choice for a moderator on this forum.

Don't get me wrong, this is not based on the critique he gives, but on the reactions he causes with people on this forum.

But then again, this is not democracy anyway

 

[Digital Matt]

The thing that I find which is most notably wrong with some of the logic in this thread is thinking that "not being afraid to give an honest critique" has anything to do with MODERATING the critique forum.

As far as my participation as a moderator in the Critique forums, I was upfront with Terri and the rest of the committee from the start in saying that I did not want to moderate. I was talked into it by Motcon, and I agreed to do so on a limited basis, with the understanding that I am not super active. That being said, for the first week or two, I was very active, to see the new forum off. What I saw was a complete lack of cooperation from the member base. (We knew there'd be some opposition, but nothing like the childish display we saw)

The #1 problem with this area of the forum is that people don't read the rules, don't realize a post is in the critique section (this might just be an inherent problem with the way in which people browse the forum), or don't even bother to try and critique it, yet feel the need to give an "attaboy". Any type of moderation of these type of responses was only met with anarchy. Honestly, out of the people who do actually take the time to write a critique, I don't see much of a problem, other than a few bad apples here or there (which I think have been dealt with). What we have is a large number of people who are knew to photography, and don't feel they have any photos worthy of critiquing. I think this is due to the "harsh" nature of critiquing that has been presented here. In regards to that, I feel that Hertz made a very valid point where a critique must be scaled to the level of the photographer who is presenting.

If you guys like the way Max critiques, then ask him to critique your photo. Get him active in the critique forum. If you don't like the way he critiques, add him to your ignore list and post away. Him being a moderator means nothing.

I too lean towards the idea of nuking the critique forum.

 

[Alpha]

Post.

Hertz, I am troubled to hear that you took issue with what we were doing but did not say anything at the time.

I'm also troubled to see that you are declaring publicly things that you are most certainly mis-remembering. I won't say anything about Motcon except that our views became polarized by the end of the panel, and that I was the one who consistently argued against the idea of an "objectively correct" critique structure. I compromised in the end on what I had to, in order to get the job done. The only other option was walking out, which I was not willing to do.

 

[Chiller]

The thing that I find which is most notably wrong with some of the logic in this thread is thinking that "not being afraid to give an honest critique" has anything to do with MODERATING the critique forum.


I too lean towards the idea of nuking the critique forum.

Ya made some good points D Matt. I believe in honest critique, but I dissaggree in the manner in which it has been done, with arrogant, and all egos aflame. You can give critique in a way that does not have to be rude. I have said this over and over...not all of us are professionals, and we only do this for fun.
I dont believe in nuking the critique forum, cause then all this will flow over into the general galleries. I stated earlier, I had a snapshot critiqued a while back. WTF...it was a snapshot. Next they will criqitue bloopers.
I have found more and more that after reading all these threads over and over the last few months that the more I read them , the more I have found TPF is not for photographers like myself who are hobby photogs. The fun of taking photos has been takin away from the "family" evirionmet we used to have here, when we could help each other and share a laugh. Now the forum is too big, and the attitude with the large crowd has joined in. I have mentioned Im on 4 photography forums, and none are like this, so maybe the time is getting near as this is obviously going in the opposite direction.

 

[elsaspet]

I'd vote "No" too Max.

I have a couple of problems with your crits generally.

Firstly, you seem to think that critique means, "to rip apart". It doesn't. It means to analyse.
Secondly, I am often weary of crit given to those who can't apply it to their own work.

The crit forum is a cluster because every tom/dick/harry has a different opinion, and most of them think it's a bash fest.

Another reason it doesn't work, is because no one is looking at the posters work from the poster's experience level. Yeah, it matters.

And lastly, very rarely, is both the GOOD pointed out in the photo. Only the bad. Crit is analysis, and there is RARELY something ALL bad.

So no Max. That's my vote. Nothing personal dude.

 

[Becky]

I've spent the last 4/5 years in weekly 'crits' standing next to my art/design/architectural presentations, so I figure I can say something here about critique. The point is to offer serious considered judgement ; a 'thats crap and the lighting sucks' is just as unhelpful as a 'good 'un mate'. Like any work that falls into the category of being down to personal opinion, theres always going to be the chance of someone just disliking your image, technically perfect or otherwise. With an artform so subjective as photography one image might have different meanings to various people; the fact is the merit of the idea and the basic technicalities can still always be considered.

The problem I see with the critique forum here is that images seem to be judged at a professional standard all the time, and like others above have said... the feedback should be relative to the level of photographer and experience. The entire point of critique, constructive or not, is that the outcome warrants some advice encouraging improvement, at every single stage of your learning.

The way I get critted now is certainly different and significantly harsher to how it was several years ago, and this is obviously due to better skills/ideas and understanding as time goes by. However, gone are the days where you stand up in front of the audience with wobbling knees taking a bollocking from superiors about what you've done wrong... its about discussion and exploration of ideas together which is something we can all learn from. The critique forum here seems to be a bit more of the former, where someone posts and runs to hide in the corner to see whats thrown at them; no one learns like that. Having had both great and horribly bad crits and witnessed hundreds of each, everybody has their way of doing things, you can be as blunt as a spoon if thats your way but let there be some appreciation of whats been done well, or what the image could be.

Clearly Max your way has been defined as blunt, which doesn't bother me much as long as theres some advice behind it, as for the moderating I'm not much bothered about that either but I've voted no as I really don't get why you'd even start such a post.... its not a popularity contest so who really cares who moderates it. I'm more interested in how the critique section works as a learning aid as a whole, which isn't really related to its moderating. I'm sure it could be rethought somehow...

 

[skieur]

oh and a forver note i have seen max work and if his stuff was any good i would agree with all but he isent even good so how can somone who isent good @ photography himself be a Critique???

I tend to hear this frequently from posters who can't put together a sentence and are often beginners in photography. I also find it totally ridiculous and dumb for anyone to think that someone could acquire an eye for photographic detail and the requisite knowledge to do a well written critique totally from a book. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Max is literate and precise in his criticism and that is what is important. There are a lot of beginners moderating forums in all areas of photography with considerably less knowledge and experience.

Anyone who is disturbed by Max's style should get a life. I doubt that very many pros were coddled and told their work was great when it left considerable quality to be desired.

skieur

 

[EBphotography]

Anyone who is disturbed by Max's style should get a life. I doubt that very many pros were coddled and told their work was great when it left considerable quality to be desired.

Assuming everyone here is interested in becoming a professional photographer, that statement would be valid. But it isn't the case. As Chiller has pointed out, not everyone here is on the road to a photography related career. Also, being polite is quite different than "coddling." Nobody here is a baby that needs to be coddled, but for this same reason people should be treated as mature human beings that are deserving of respect. This has nothing to do with "getting a life."

As for the critique forum, I wouldn't mind if it disappeared. I certainly appreciate the effort that was put forth by those on the committee, including Max, but I think they were given an impossible task. On a forum with as many members as this there is going to be a wide range of backgrounds and skill levels. Sure, we could tailor our responses and critiques to match each member, but how time-consuming and tedious is that? We don't know each member's background or skill level that mostly everyone here has agreed is necessary for "scaled critique." Basically, the critique forum is going to attract too many types of people that expect too many different things out of this one place. Who are we to tell someone they cant tell someone they did a nice job on their photo without providing any technical backup? Sometimes thats all someone feels like posting, and I doubt the OP would be offended by that comment. It doesn't take away from anyone else's critique. Just my thoughts, it's a complex issue that I have a hard time taking one person's side on.

 

[elsaspet]

Anyone who is disturbed by Max's style should get a life. I doubt that very many pros were coddled and told their work was great when it left considerable quality to be desired.

skieur

Ah, how wrong you are Skieur. I'm a professional photographer (I make 100 percent of my income from photography).
If I was ripped to shreds when I first started out, I would have promptly sold my camera.
But I found the Photo Forum back in the olden days. Back then, you got something like, "While your composition and emotion is good, I feel that a crop would help, as would adding some reflective light. Here's how I do it" followed by sample photo and recommended crop and lighting setup.

Far from, "Your focus is all wrong. It's overexposed. This needs a total overhaul".
See the difference? Surely you do.

And my mentors, who I had several of, would say, "That's not bad". (As they took the time to learn what my experience level was). "Next time try to lower your flash output, and bounce it so you don't have so much direct light". (This being an actual bit of advice).

When someone is just starting out, they KNOW that they don't know what they are doing, but they want tips and pointers. Telling them that they suck helps them nada. They should be treated in the same fragile sense you would treat an infant, because in photography knowledge, that just might be exactly what they are.

When a pro posts, I say go at them with both barrels, but only if you A)have some experience doing the same type of work-so that you know the limitations and expectations of said shoot and B) aren't just repeating rhedoric that you heard somewhere, but mostly C)you still use an ounce of respect you would give to any person you met, face to face on the street.

So as a paid pro, I can tell you without reservation that your above statement is ill informed, and completely incorrect.