Why do we want to learn?

Discussion in 'Photographic Discussions' started by LaFoto, May 12, 2007.

  1. LaFoto

    LaFoto Just Corinna in real life Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    34,814
    Likes Received:
    814
    Location:
    Lower Saxony, Germany
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    The newest discussion on NOTE and OTE photos and members who decide for or against the one or the other makes me think further.

    It is without question that any kind of critiquing/critisising any sort of someone else's work should at best be for that author's (in the broadest of senses) help - development - learning.

    In that sense, any mark you get for any school assignment, plus the teachers' remarks on your work, should help you move forward, not make the mistakes again, develop yourself, learn.

    Therefore I think that if a teacher went to rewrite your essay, or set about to re-draw your drawing, how much would you learn? What you get to see is your teacher's work. No longer your own ... along with your teacher's critique/critisism/remarks/mark.

    Which makes me wonder in how far it helps to try and teach someone on the "here and now", i.e. on a photo that has already been taken at some point in time in the past, by changing said photo and saying: my changes make it better, when all in all any kind of critiquing/teaching should be future-bound, should be said so the NEXT photo can be done better to begin with?

    Having said this, I want to underline that I am absolutely NOT opposed to PP work (whether it be with Photoshop or any other pp software), and I don't leave even ONE photo that I finally show untreated in pp software.

    And I want to say that some photos shown here have more potential in themselves than has been realised by their author. And in those cases, more so when the photo author says "Could someone show me how to change this", I am very willing to do so.

    All in all, though, to my mind critique should be directed to the FUTURE, to photos still to be taken, and that is when I feel words should be used for critique, explanations, so that in their future as hopefully always better photographers our members here can use those explanations and apply them themselves to their future photos --- and possibly right from the start, in their composition, exposure settings etc.

    Learning by doing has proved to be the most effective, and critiquing/teaching should give the means, the guidance, the help. My mind...
     
  2. Chris of Arabia

    Chris of Arabia Herding cats since 1988... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    7,825
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    The Magic Kingdom
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    Whilst only addressing your post in a limited way, I have seen many occasions where one or more alternative edits have been posted, but rarely do I see an explanation of the techniques used to make that edit - in that case, what possible learning can the OP do? I think I agree

    >;o))
     
  3. abraxas

    abraxas No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    10,417
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    I wish everyone understood and operated by what you said LaFoto, and I agree completely.

    Some of us realize that our creativity is the only thing we have that isn't part of the 'collective work', part of the 'big blah' that eventually takes over everything but the point of the creation. In most cases (because nothing is absolute), as soon as another sticks their hands in something we've made our work becomes part of the mediocrity.
     
  4. mysteryscribe

    mysteryscribe TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2006
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    in the middle of north carolina
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    My beliefs are well known. I do not agree, but then you wouldn't expect me to.

    A teacher often rewrites a sentence to show you the best way to make a phrase work. He or she will often correct spelling... He or she might add an element to a drawing on a learning page.

    If you don't want to see a different way I will respect that, but it is hard to respect the attitude that to show me a better way is somehow flawed.

    This is really a discussion with no winners. By the way I have had ote on my work since day one. I have exactly one person actually do it and it was in fun. We spent a most pleasant week going back and forth with an image I shot.

    http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69567 this is the edits you should go look at it cause it is truly what the ote is about in my opinion it went from a not very good image to something i would use on a poster in a second. By the way the other person is welcome to use it as well since it really is his vision as well.
     
  5. EBphotography

    EBphotography TPF Junkie!

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Maine, USA
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    I remember that, it was excellent. :)
     
  6. LaFoto

    LaFoto Just Corinna in real life Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    34,814
    Likes Received:
    814
    Location:
    Lower Saxony, Germany
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    Let me state again that for desired, deliberate offers to have photos edited in order to get new ideas for possible PS editions on THAT very photo, we have the Photoshop Challenges, and I have had photos in the Challenges, too. No qualms on my side there.

    But as a general rule, I a) don't know any teacher (other than my daughter's art teacher in Grade 5, who riled EVERYONE!) who actually rewrites sentences, only would they put "sentence structure" on the side and - if you ask them later "What's that?" - discuss it with you, and b) I still think that it is the words that bring about more.

    But I am always happy to agree to disagree.
    There is an OPTION on TPF, we have a CHOICE, and I chose NOTE and need not be in the defensive over my choice, at all.

    And my question was "Why do we want to learn?", here, anyway.

    Ah. Just a story from when I was 9.
    We had to paint "A King" in arts class, with water colours.
    I painted a big orange head, dots as eyes, smiley mouth, two round red dots as "healthy cheeks", lots of beads around my "king's" neck, a crown on his head, all that. And I was very happy with my painting in the end.

    My mother said: "But he looks like a Red Indian (polically incorrect wording, I know, but that is what she said back then) in full war paint! Here, I show you how to paint red cheeks". And she took out a new sheet of paper and showed me. In her own painting, one that she created all by herself. I was duly impressed with how she made the face pink, not orange, by mixing red with white, and put some more red into the still wet pink to make it flow apart and not look too added.

    So I set out and painted a queen. In the new technique. Which was then MY painting, from the beginning to the end. All mine. Much better than the king, truer to life. And I had learned something new.

    I brought all three pics back into class. And the arts teacher loved my mom's king. I kept saying: THAT ONE is NOT mine! My mom did it to show me how to paint red cheeks, but it is NOT mine!

    I could not help it: my MOM's pic went into the showcase in the hallway!
    I was FURIOUS.
    Not because it was none of my pics in there, but because the teacher apparently never listened. I did not insist on having my orange-red-dot-cheek king in there. By then I knew it looked kind of ... funny.

    But for them to take an adult's pic and put it among all the other 9-year-old paintings ... my!

    Well, but my mother did not change MY king.
    I still have all three: the orange-red-dot-cheek king, my mother's king, and my own queen. I could photograph them for you and show you.

    That is how I learned.
    And we can learn about all sorts of photography, even that which would normally be "outside our box" on here. By reading other members' posts, by looking at their photos, by sharpening our own awareness on what speaks to us and what does not, which also helps learning for one's self, one's own opinions, and then we can decide in what manner we want to step out of our own box and try out new paths.

    If pictures only get edited, or any work does, to me it means someone else is trying to get me into their box...
     
  7. Alex_B

    Alex_B No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,491
    Likes Received:
    206
    Location:
    Europe 67.51°N
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    that is sometimes a pity ... and I got upset a few times because of that.

    but then again, I myself forgot to tell people how I actually did on occasions ... so this is not done on purpose I guess.
     
  8. Alex_B

    Alex_B No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,491
    Likes Received:
    206
    Location:
    Europe 67.51°N
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    BTW, I mostly learn by looking at images that leave a deep impression on me (other people images) ... and I look at images which went horribly wrong (mostly my own ;) ).

    And the next time I try to do things better.

    But on 4 or 5 occasion I also learned by someone else editing my images.

    And here it comes: I did learn alot by trying to improve other peoples images!! So thank you guys for giving your OTE :)


    But those who say NOTE give me more written feedback, so I guess it compensates well for that and it is all a very fruitful mixture ;)
     
  9. mysteryscribe

    mysteryscribe TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2006
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    in the middle of north carolina
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    I think agree to disagree comes into play here. I had this long post written and realized that it isn't going to change things for either of us.
     
  10. LaFoto

    LaFoto Just Corinna in real life Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    34,814
    Likes Received:
    814
    Location:
    Lower Saxony, Germany
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    Please keep feeling invited to share your opinion on here, though, Charly!
    Never anyone think that because we are not all of the same opinion on here on several matters means we cannot be friends. Or does it?
     
  11. The_Traveler

    The_Traveler Completely Counter-dependent Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    18,099
    Likes Received:
    7,451
    Location:
    Mid-Atlantic US
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    I think it is more respectful of the OP not to go any further with your comments then a response to the picture as posted unless or until the OP asks for more. You are making the assumption that you know what is best for the photographer in all cases and that everyone needs or wants a lesson - and that might be considered a little patronizing.

    When I post a picture, I don't want a lesson, I am asking for a response to the picture as posted.
     
  12. LaFoto

    LaFoto Just Corinna in real life Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    34,814
    Likes Received:
    814
    Location:
    Lower Saxony, Germany
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    Ah, come on.
    I don't, and I am not patronising.

    Have you ever read any of my replies to any of the members here?
    Ask around and find out if I am always giving lectures and if I am patronising.

    My question much more arises from the fact that in other threads in which members discuss issues this forum is being pointed out as one where "people come who want to learn", and those statements are not originally mine. I know that there's also a good many members who want to just show their work and share and talk about it just a little.

    And if you are honest, you can TELL from my replies that I know that.
    And you know that I reply adequately.

    This thread really is because so many others say this forum is "mostly for learning"...
     

Share This Page