Yalls Thoughts On My First Neg. Police Encounter

How do you handle being asked/demanded to delete a photo?

  • Comply

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Refuse

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 21.4%

  • Total voters
    14
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rescue341

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Hey all. I wasn't exactly sure where to put this so please forgive me if i'm in the wrong place. I had my frist negitve police encounter today and was hopeing for thoughts and advice for the future

A little background on this location and how I deal with people this is local flea market that I've done photo walks at a few times in the past. There have been a few times I have been approached by people asking qustions mostly all pleasent encounter ending in me deleting there photo and apologize for offending them. There have been a few less pleasant encounters with people being rude and yelling these have all ended peacefully with me telling them It's a protected right upheld by the supreme court and walking away. I am very much of a it's how you apporch me kind of guy

Round one:
Now on to todays events. So I get to the flea market and do as I ussaly do I start at the far end and make laps takeing picture of anyting that catches my eye. People talking about an old oil lantern, a old plow ect ect. I made about three laps before I notice a guy walking backwards towards me. He gets to me and in a real hushed and angery voice says "delete the picture!" I reply " I dont think I have any of you but hold on ill check" This made him mad and he got out of his hushed voice and started yelling how thats BS he saw me take his picture. At this point with the guy yelling I have already decided I dont care if I have a pic of him or not and if I do i dont care how out of focus it is im not deleating it. So I start the whole spill that its a frist amendment right, Hes in a public place with not expectation of privacy blah blah blah. I start to walk away and he grabs for my camera. I push him back and hit record on my camera (my card was almost full so I only got part of the altercation). He chest up and i put my arm out keeping him at a distance and yelling commands to back up or I will press charges, He backs up and walks away. I check my camera for damage and go in the other direction to countiune on. A few mins latter he finds and starts a verbal altercation hes yelling about wire tap laws and privacy and that im some kind of prevent and he rents a space at the flea market so its like his home an i cant take pictures of his home. a small coward forms with a few taking pictures of me and a few joing in with the guy. Someone who saw this called the police who came and delt with it. I showed them the partial video I had gotten of the assualt and they asked if i wanted to press charges I refused becuase I wasnt hurt and my stuff was broke so I saw no point in risking runing someone elses life by trying to send them to jail. these officer were very good about understanding photograghy as a right. One very respectfuly tried to convince me to not take any photos of anyone I explanied to him that i understood what he ment but I couldnt let anyone bully me out of a right i bleive in. Again these officers were wonderful the Neg encounter comes in round two

Round Two:
Becuase the altercation with the guy drew a small coward that sided with him this kind of set the tone of the venders for the rest of the day. I had many get angry and yell and cuss but to some of there credits I also had a few really good conversations with some including a Mexican immigrant who told me it made him very said to see so many people who never lived with out rights forgetting how important those rights are. Fast forward to the end of the day when most vendors are packing up. I see a woman packing up some amazing wood carvings she had made. I raise my camera and start to pull focus when she bends down picks up a rock and throws it at me. I hit record as she picks up hand fulls of gravel and slings them at me. Yelling shell call the cops. I tell her mama if you dont stop throwing gravel ill call th- Boom I catch a rock in my eye. I call 911 and request deputys respond to my location. they get there and say nothing about the woman throwing rocks. When I try to show them the video. They refuse. One officer ask me for my Press ID. I tell him I dont have a Press ID but I do have a drivers licences if he needs to see it. He says without a press ID I cant take pictures of people. I try explaing to him and any member of the public can be considered a member of the press and the a press ID gives no more rights then a citzen already has. He doesn't want to here it. He goes on to say I may have a right to photograph in public but not when its harassment by shoving a camera in peoples faces. I show him my telescoping lens and explain to him that my shots are taking from as far away as possible so i can capture more natural interactions and how is that shoving a camera in someones face. The encounter ends after a few more threats from the officer that he will charge me with harassment and a few more times of being called an idiot by the officer. I have a appointment with his Sargent to talk about the encounter Monday

What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts
 
Who owns the flea market? It's up to them if people are allowed to bring in cameras. You're photographing what seems to be the vendors' place of business since they presumably are paying to rent the space to sell merchandise. Sometimes businesses or stores have restrictions on their merchandise being photographed.

If you're there all day going around I think if I was a vendor I'd be wondering what you were doing and what you're going to do with that many photos.because that's a lot of time to spend taking pictures. I've done sports and events; it doesn't take all that long to photograph an event. If I'm taking pictures just for my own personal use at a festival or event I doubt I'd be there all day; if I was working a day long event I don't think I'd be taking pictures all day either. It seems like an excessive amount of time the way you describe it.

Obviously even if cameras are allowed by the flea market management, you seem to be coming across as an annoyance to the vendors. Maybe it's the amount of time you're there, maybe it's just too much for them feeling like they're constantly being photographed while they're trying to work. From the way you described it I could see how you might be getting on their nerves. You might need to rethink what you're doing and how it's coming across to them since they don't exactly seem receptive to your presence. Whether it's taking photos or watching or staring I think that gets uncomfortable after awhile. Would you want someone to do that to you? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to, especially if it's to the point of getting to be too much.
 
I agree with @vintagesnaps. If the mall is a closed area or hall then is it not a public space and you do not necessarily have any permission to photograph there, you certainly do not automatically have the right.
Secondly not everybody would take kindly to having someone document their movements, which especially includes the stall's customers. Who, like yourself, would most likely just walk away from the encounter and possibly the mall. You might think yourself an artist, but the stall holder's customers might just find it intrusive and repeated often may eventually get on the stall holder's nerves.

Though I do not necessarily agree with the confrontational nature of dispute settling, approaching disputes as though they were aggressive contests where you have to protect or defend your "whatever" does seem to be common behaviour over in America.
 
I have to agree with the others. You weren't in a public place, you were in a private business. The requirements of the flea market owner prevail and it is your responsibility to determine beforehand what those requirements are. If they say you are allowed to take photos there then you have a valid argument. If they say it is not, or you didn't check first, then in my opinion you do not.

View it as you would a sporting event. They would also be considered places where "The Public Gathers" and a place where "People have no expectation of privacy". You are still bound by the rules of the event organizers and/or the owners of the property. If they say "No Photography" or "No Smoking" or no this or no that you are still bound by those rules (not laws but rules) and it is your responsibility to know what they are beforehand.
 
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I agree with the above but more importantly, I don't understand why you would keep subjecting yourself to that situation?
 
I would have just left. Just because we have rights to do something doesn't always mean we should. If I have to explain my rights, then it is obvious that I am not wanted. Physical altercations are not good and have to handled correctly and swiftly, if you don't have that ability, leave immediately, run if you have too. The key indicater here is the crowd supporting the other guy, time to leave, you didn't, it escalated because of your reaction. I am learning it's more about how I interact with the people, more so then taking images. Body language, smiling, and being genuinely grateful to be a part of my surroundings goes a long way for an enriching experience.

Let's face it, this is not the 70's where not everyone had a camera. I think people are sick of cameras thanks to cell phones. Especially police. It's not like I am on assignment for LA Times, or a magazine. If I have the slightest feeling I have to be or feel sneaky, I pack it up and go shoot something else.
 
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Rule #1- No matter how well you think you know your legal standing, you will not win an argument with an officer on the scene.

Rule #2 - If your encounter is going badly, refer back to rule #1.
 
I've heard the misused "Public Place" "No expectation of privacy" statements quite a bit lately. Most of the time, they're wrong.

First in order for it to be a "public place" it MUST be owned by the public i.e. municipal, state/provincial or federal government. Once something is owned by a person, business or corporation it is now a private place which negates the first statement.

Second. The only way you can get away with the no expectation of privacy is if you can AND did take the pictures from public ground but could see into the private place. The reason I say this is that the company that owns the private property is the only one that can dictate the level of privacy to be expected.

Third. The company will side with the vendors since all you have demonstrated to them (even though it wasn't your intent) is a possible loss of revenue.

Lastly. I would always comply in this type of situation. Would rather not get the shot but be seen as a reasonable person than to get into the "It's my right" argument since most people who start with It's my right....are actually incorrect since most people have never actually read what their rights and responsibilities are.

Cliffnotes, comply
 
A public space is normally defined as a place the public has access to, whither it is privately owned or not and can still be places that charge an entrance fee. It's pretty well defined in most places that restrict smoking in public places (though in the UK if it's a place that is privatley owned then you just need permission from the owner to photograph there. Permission is normally assumed, until you are told you don't have permission. But even then all they can do is eject you from the premises if you don't comply - laws may vary in other countries)
 
As @zombiesniper stated above the "public place" argument gets used a lot, but something that fails to be recognized is that your rights end where mine begin.

Most states have Harassment laws on the books which cover behavior even in a public space. While you may have some right to photograph an individual they could well be protected by harassment laws that prevent you from annoying them or making them feel uncomfortable. If they are working, your mere presence with a camera could be considered an impediment to them doing their job.
 
I would have just left. Just because we have rights to do something doesn't always mean we should. If I have to explain my rights, then it is obvious that I am not wanted. Physical altercations are not good and have to handled correctly and swiftly, if you don't have that ability, leave immediately, run if you have too. The key indicater here is the crowd supporting the other guy, time to leave, you didn't, it escalated because of your reaction. I am learning it's more about how I interact with the people, more so then taking images. Body language, smiling, and being genuinely grateful to be a part of my surroundings goes a long way for an enriching experience.

Let's face it, this is not the 70's where not everyone had a camera. I think people are sick of cameras thanks to cell phones. Especially police. It's not like I am on assignment for LA Times, or a magazine. If I have the slightest feeling I have to be or feel sneaky, I pack it up and go shoot something else.

Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly with this. As photographers we should have consideration towards others. It wouldn't surprise me if we see the law on photography changing and getting more restrictive in the next decade or so.
 
What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts
It seems much of the events you described stem from your own actions. Pick a new hobby.
 
Remember........... one's answer depends greatly on where on the planet one is located at.

Personally, I'd just merrily delete the images to defuse the situation.





















Then immediately change memory cards, continue shooting...................... and recover the images when I get back to the computer.


:345:
 
Hey all. I wasn't exactly sure where to put this so please forgive me if i'm in the wrong place. I had my frist negitve police encounter today and was hopeing for thoughts and advice for the future

A little background on this location and how I deal with people this is local flea market that I've done photo walks at a few times in the past. There have been a few times I have been approached by people asking qustions mostly all pleasent encounter ending in me deleting there photo and apologize for offending them. There have been a few less pleasant encounters with people being rude and yelling these have all ended peacefully with me telling them It's a protected right upheld by the supreme court and walking away. I am very much of a it's how you apporch me kind of guy

Round one:
Now on to todays events. So I get to the flea market and do as I ussaly do I start at the far end and make laps takeing picture of anyting that catches my eye. People talking about an old oil lantern, a old plow ect ect. I made about three laps before I notice a guy walking backwards towards me. He gets to me and in a real hushed and angery voice says "delete the picture!" I reply " I dont think I have any of you but hold on ill check" This made him mad and he got out of his hushed voice and started yelling how thats BS he saw me take his picture. At this point with the guy yelling I have already decided I dont care if I have a pic of him or not and if I do i dont care how out of focus it is im not deleating it. So I start the whole spill that its a frist amendment right, Hes in a public place with not expectation of privacy blah blah blah. I start to walk away and he grabs for my camera. I push him back and hit record on my camera (my card was almost full so I only got part of the altercation). He chest up and i put my arm out keeping him at a distance and yelling commands to back up or I will press charges, He backs up and walks away. I check my camera for damage and go in the other direction to countiune on. A few mins latter he finds and starts a verbal altercation hes yelling about wire tap laws and privacy and that im some kind of prevent and he rents a space at the flea market so its like his home an i cant take pictures of his home. a small coward forms with a few taking pictures of me and a few joing in with the guy. Someone who saw this called the police who came and delt with it. I showed them the partial video I had gotten of the assualt and they asked if i wanted to press charges I refused becuase I wasnt hurt and my stuff was broke so I saw no point in risking runing someone elses life by trying to send them to jail. these officer were very good about understanding photograghy as a right. One very respectfuly tried to convince me to not take any photos of anyone I explanied to him that i understood what he ment but I couldnt let anyone bully me out of a right i bleive in. Again these officers were wonderful the Neg encounter comes in round two

Round Two:
Becuase the altercation with the guy drew a small coward that sided with him this kind of set the tone of the venders for the rest of the day. I had many get angry and yell and cuss but to some of there credits I also had a few really good conversations with some including a Mexican immigrant who told me it made him very said to see so many people who never lived with out rights forgetting how important those rights are. Fast forward to the end of the day when most vendors are packing up. I see a woman packing up some amazing wood carvings she had made. I raise my camera and start to pull focus when she bends down picks up a rock and throws it at me. I hit record as she picks up hand fulls of gravel and slings them at me. Yelling shell call the cops. I tell her mama if you dont stop throwing gravel ill call th- Boom I catch a rock in my eye. I call 911 and request deputys respond to my location. they get there and say nothing about the woman throwing rocks. When I try to show them the video. They refuse. One officer ask me for my Press ID. I tell him I dont have a Press ID but I do have a drivers licences if he needs to see it. He says without a press ID I cant take pictures of people. I try explaing to him and any member of the public can be considered a member of the press and the a press ID gives no more rights then a citzen already has. He doesn't want to here it. He goes on to say I may have a right to photograph in public but not when its harassment by shoving a camera in peoples faces. I show him my telescoping lens and explain to him that my shots are taking from as far away as possible so i can capture more natural interactions and how is that shoving a camera in someones face. The encounter ends after a few more threats from the officer that he will charge me with harassment and a few more times of being called an idiot by the officer. I have a appointment with his Sargent to talk about the encounter Monday

What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts
This is what happens when a photographer decides that they are also a lawyer because they read an article or watched a video on Youtube on the internet. And we all know that everything on the internet is true.
 
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