A little honesty

Allsmiles7282 · Nov 2, 2007

Let me preface this by saying that I am a nice person and I think it is great that there are so many people interested in photography.

However..

I've been asked several times why I've been a member for so long with so few posts and here is my response...I feel that this board has gotten a bit out of focus. This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera" on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals. Just because you have money to buy a nice camera does not make you a professional nor give you the right to criticize others on something you know little about.

I'm not saying that there aren't some AMAZING photographers on here, because there definetly are. I don't post that much because most of the time I just want to say "maybe you should take a photography class and learn at least the basics" but I don't because I have found that when I do, people's feelings get hurt.

I wish the business district would be just that... people in business. It's very hard to run your own business and I have paid my dues and busted my butt to build my business and learn what I know. There are galleries on here if you are just posting a snapshot.

If that makes me a wtich then so be it. It is time for some honesty around here.

Big Mike · Nov 2, 2007

It's a fine line. The business district was made for professionals to post...even then, it's hard to know when & where to draw the line as to who/what is professional what isn't.

We have never had any restriction as to who can reply to those posts. And just because some might have little knowledge, does not disqualify their opinions about photographs.

On one hand, it might be nice to have a place where working pros can converse back and forth...but on the other hand, non-pros have valid opinions as well.

For the most part, this is a smaller forum with a large amount of beginners and hobbyist/enthusiasts...and fewer pros.

If you think that we should have a separate section where only proven professionals can post, then I'd suggest you put forth that idea in the feedback section and we will take it under advisement. If there is enough demand, it might become a reality. But it might be one of those things that we are better off without...I don't know.

There are forum sites that are strictly for pros...some of which have an actual membership fee. That is always an option for you.

Personally, several of the forums that I've seen...which are made up of primarily pros...are not nearly as friendly as this site. Especially for those that are not as experienced.

Allsmiles7282 · Nov 2, 2007

I completely agree with you but I'm not saying the whole forum should be pros only, just this section that says "business" district. (as it does say PROFESSIONAL Portrait and Wedding) If I were to suggest a pro's only section, what would you call it? the REAL PROFESSIONAL section?

I think there needs to be some policing of this section. By all means, everyone should be able to comment to posts but they should be posting their pictures is the amature galleries because that is what they are. (and amature isnt a bad thing, we were all one at some point) I learned by asking pros my questions and getting honest answers. There are amatures claiming to be pros and giving out bad/wrong advice concerning the basics of photography. I'd be more than willing to help people but how is an amature to know who truly knows what they are talking about and those operating under the "fake it until you make it" principal?

As for the paid forum, I am a part of quite a few of them. The admission fee and review of the work to become a member weeds out the hobbyists. On one hand it is nice to have pros conversing with pros but how are amatures ever going to learn this way?

I'm not trying to be ugly or mean, I wrote this in response to people asking me why I don't post often, so I was honest in my response. I started my posting on this forum way back when I first started getting in to photography and I just think that this forum has the potential to be much more. I left this forum years ago because there was no delineation between who I could trust and who I couldn't. I went somewhere that had a true "Ask the pros" type section and I learned A LOT from them. I wish this board had that and I think that was the original intention of the business district section.

But who knows...:raisedbrow:

elsaspet · Nov 2, 2007

I'm gonna waffle here.
It drives me crazy when I see posts that have nutty, and sometimes in my opinion, bad advice.
However, who is a pro? At DWF, you have to have what THEY consider to be a pro website, and have to have been in business for x amount of time to become a pro member there. It's a pay site, which I am also a member of. They have the type of money to enforce that kind of strict standard.
That's an awful lot of work to have the unpaid mod's here try to enforce.

I lose it in regards to this topic sometimes too. It can be frustrating as hell. If the advice smacks of nonsense, call it nonsense, or ignore it. But every once in a while you are going to get a great nugget of advice from someone who just loves looking at photos.

Hugs to you, and I hope you stick around.

dpolston · Nov 2, 2007

I'll throw in here... what qualifies a pro to be a pro?

Professional

Adjective

1. Engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood; "the professional man or woman possesses distinctive qualifications"; "began her professional career after the Olympics"; "professional theater"; "professional football"; "a professional cook"; "professional actors and athletes".
2. Of or relating to or suitable as a profession; "professional organizations"; "a professional field such as law".
3. Characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"; "a thoroughly professional performance".
4. Of or relating to a profession; "we need professional advice"; "professional training"; "professional equipment for his new office".
5. Engaged in by members of a profession; "professional occupations include medicine and the law and teaching".

Noun

1. A person engaged in one of the learned professions.
2. An athlete who plays for pay.
3. An authority qualified to teach apprentices.

Now, I do not make the majority of my annual salary as a photographer (as I am in another profession as a professional construction contractor) but I do generate some income with my photography services. If it's strictly based with a monetary value then I'm in, if it's "the majority" of my income, I'm out.

Fine line.

BTW... I am not disagreeing with your post. Sometimes you just want to shoot the breeze with like minded businesspersons.

Sweetsomedays · Nov 2, 2007

This is going to sound snipity but it's not intended that way.
Should people who know they arent ready but desire to one day be a pro photographer stay out and not ask questions from experienced individuals?
I can see where your coming from. But it's nice to get input from those that have been there done that. Maybe there should be another closed forum for those doing photography strictly for profit to discuss.

SpeedTrap · Nov 2, 2007

I am in the boat of being a starting pro photographer.
I have a business licenses I have a registered company, and I do not shoot for free unless it is for me.
Do I make most on my money in Photography, No.
I do have another profession that I make most of my money from. But this year I made more from my photography than last year and next year I hope to make than this year.

Heck · Nov 2, 2007

This forum is the only place where I feel like I can rub elbows with “real professionals” sometimes, But the definition of pro may be very different to most. Its the lack of elitist attitudes here that keep me asking question in order to learn and enjoy photography and im thankful for the info I get from the pros and non pros here.

Sweetsomedays · Nov 2, 2007

A big ol' ditto to everything Heck said.

skieur · Nov 2, 2007

Allsmiles has a good point. No beginner should be posting portraits of her children in "Professional Portraits and Wedding Photography", for example. I think though that some of the pros here are at fault too.

Pros, if you really want a "professional forum" then take the gloves off, so-to-speak and critique photos as professional shots...in detail with higher expectations for quality. Jump in and don't let comments pass that are totally "ignorant" of basic photography. Suggest that some posters should be moving their work to another gallery. Moderators should take the same approach in the "professional areas". Get united on higher expectations related to postings in professional areas.

skieur

~Stella~ · Nov 2, 2007

This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera" on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals.

Don't forget that nonprofessionals are the ones paying you for your services and as such, they might actually have some valuable input about certain issues from the consumer's point of view. As long as the advice isn't assinine (in which case, disregard it by all means), I don't see why it would hurt for nonprofessionals to reply. Further, many nonprofessionals are professionals in other fields and have extensive experience in diverse areas that may come into play here - business or marketing experience or legal experience just for starters. Anyone would be a fool to turn away sound business advice away just because the poster was a beginning photographer.

Sincerely,
Mom with a Camera.

skieur · Nov 2, 2007

~Stella~ said:
Don't forget that nonprofessionals are the ones paying you for your services

Sincerely,
Mom with a Camera.

It is too easy to generalize incorrectly. Not all pros are dealing with the general public as wedding or portrait photographers etc. Some indeed are working for media professionals or professional organizations in the business or public sector.

I think Allsmiles is probably reflecting the frustration that pros sometimes feel when encountering what can only be characterized as total photographic ignorance combined with arrogance from a beginner who has only had a camera for a few years.

Pros have paid their dues. They have studied the field, learned the rules, standards and styles and some here have 40, 50, and 60 years of experience. They don't mind sharing their expertise but are not keen on being abused in the process. They also would like to hear useful comments from other professionals or for that matter from talented amateurs who are truly dedicated to learning about photography.

To quote from another photo web site that I am on: "We take care of our pros, because their expertise is an essential part of any photographic website. We do whatever we can to keep them here."

skieur

Allsmiles7282 · Nov 2, 2007

Here's the thing...I'm not a Politically Correct person because I just think it is a big waste of time and we should just say what we mean.

I have NO problem with people that are wanting to learn, asking questions. Like I have stated before, that is how I learned, asking questions, trial and error, studying under experienced photographers. MY problem lies with people who continually post pictures in the PROFESSIONAL section and says "what do you think?" Because I want to sceam... I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR KID LOOKS LIKE! If it is someone truly wanting to learn they will ask for specific feedback on whatever they are trying to get better at, not just posting some random picture and putting "please cc."

I come to this board to help people and to gain insight from other photographers. I have been paying dues for a very long time and am tired on my time being wasted on a proud mom calling herself a photographer. Not only is it a waste of my time but also an insult to those of us that have truly honed our craft and studied it.

Where you draw the line as a photographer, I don't know. However, I do think that those who are professionals can tell you the difference between what we do and a snapshot. But the gloves are off and from now on, if its a snapshop that anybody could have taken with any camera, I'm gonna say so. Thats what you get for posting in the pro section IMO. My husband is always saying, "say what you mean. Tell them that it looks like I could have taken that picture" and from now on I will. (Now in other galleries is a COMPLETELY different story. Or if someone says "how is my DOF here" I will help them any way I can, get it?)

Thanks.

P.S. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in my frustration and that others feel the same.

~Stella~ · Nov 2, 2007

skieur said:
It is too easy to generalize incorrectly. Not all pros are dealing with the general public as wedding or portrait photographers etc. Some indeed are working for media professionals or professional organizations in the business or public sector.

This is true, but my comment could include people other than the general public, right? Basically anyone that needs nice images that isn't qualified to do it themselves, whether that be soccer mommies or business owners - they are all nonprofessionals as far as photography goes.

skieur said:
I think Allsmiles is probably reflecting the frustration that pros sometimes feel when encountering what can only be characterized as total photographic ignorance combined with arrogance from a beginner who has only had a camera for a few years.

I understand that, but not everyone who has just started out has nothing of value to contribute. And not all pros contribute fantastic advice every time. And since anyone can claim to be anything on a forum like this, is it not better to just take the comments on their own merit?

I've given legal advice a few time on this portion of the board, IIRC. I was qualified to answer the question posed. I would never respond to a question that I had no business answering, which I assume is the real problem here, but since, again, we can claim to be anything, I would suggest judging each post on its own merit and using the ignore function if the poster merits.

MY problem lies with people who continually post pictures in the PROFESSIONAL section and says "what do you think?" Because I want to sceam... I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR KID LOOKS LIKE! If it is someone truly wanting to learn they will ask for specific feedback on whatever they are trying to get better at, not just posting some random picture and putting "please cc."

That makes me nutty too - and I'm no pro, obviously. I understand. My comments above spoke to advice threads rather than photo/gallery type posts and I should have specified as such.

ETA - I'm having a really bad day. If this came off sounding crabby, it honestly wasn't meant to.