A question

imagemaker46 · Aug 17, 2013

As I have been given a warning of a ban by an admin for stating my opinion, and it being ruled by this admin as an argument against his personal opinion of wanting to eliminate the words amateur and professional. Does it seem fair or reasonable that one person regardless of who they are be given an opinion and another person not? Should we just drop the words amateur and professional and just use camera owners? Perhaps set up a poll and see what others think.

I believe that my posts and my experience have been viewed as an asset to this forum by many people, obviously not everyone will agree with what I say, and that is understandable. Everyone has an opinion, and I respect that. I decided to post this in the open forum instead of sending a private message, as in my opinion it is important and does in fact concern everyone of this forum.

Scott

Buckster · Aug 17, 2013

amolitor · Aug 17, 2013

Your posts are in general an asset, you are a valued contributor.

Like most of us you get a bit testy and argumentative at times, and then you get warned to tone it down. It happens to everyone who holds strong opinions and posts them. The mods and admins are human too, and not every ruling is going to make perfect sense of be perfectly fair or correct. In general you can pretty much rely on any sort of ruling to be in the interest of peace, calm, and higher quality discussion on the forums -- in general terms. Sometimes you're gonna get the short of the stick, on account of the human thing.

Rein it in a bit, and move on, is my advice.

terri · Aug 17, 2013

Here you go, Scott:

* Should you disagree with a staff member's decision regarding one of your posts, please contact that staffer, or the site owners, privately. Publicly challenging a staff member may result in banning, regardless of who is deemed right. For example: a moderator closes your thread. Opening a new thread on the same topic or to insult or challenge the moderator may lead to your being banned.

Please conduct yourself according to the guidelines in the FAQ's. This one states how you should proceed at this time.

Thank you for your consideration.

pgriz · Aug 17, 2013

Scott, your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. Your experience as a professional does allow you to provide a lot of substance to your opinions and I for one, pay a lot of attention to your opinions on photographic matters. On the other hand, if you were commenting on matters where you do not have much expertise or experience, I'd give your the same weight as I would to the opinions of people I don't know. I believe it is up to the individual readers of each forum to form their own idea of which posters they consider informed and useful, and which can be safely dismissed. There are times when saying true things is unpopular with the powers that be (be they governments, political parties, commercial entities, or other associations) and it is up to the same powers-that-be to determine when the line is crossed, and what the sanctions are. Their reaction, however, tells the other participants what kind of entity they are dealing with.

I think there is a consensus that posters who indulge in personal attacks, bullying and/or antagonistic and/or disruptive behaviour, deserve to be banned if they do not clean up their act after being warned. I personally dislike, but tolerate, this site's avoidance of "controversial" issues (politics, gender issues, religion, etc. are some that come to mind), but then I understand the main focus of this forum is photography. I also understand that this site is run by a business, which makes a revenue stream based on the advertising shown on the site to the users, and although I dislike this aspect, I tolerate it as overall the irritation that the ads cause, is moderated by the education/entertainment value. However, as a participant in many forums, I also note that the inherent value in these forums is the quality of the people that are attracted to participate in the forum, and their frequent and enthusiastic participation. If the powers-that-be chase away people with experience, knowledge, and proven ability to interact, because they are deemed to be too "controversial" even on topic, then the site becomes that much less attractive.

The role of the moderators is a bit like those of referees. The most enjoyable games to watch are those where the referees run things with a relatively light hand, stopping the bad stuff, but generally allowing the games to develop their own emotional intensity. When the referees are too "tight", then there is often no flow, and the wrong kind of emotion. If they abdicate their responsibilities altogether, then it can get really ugly as well. So "firm, but light" seems to be the winning combination. I'm paying attention as to the level of refereeing in this forum.

Steve5D · Aug 17, 2013

I don't see a benefit in excluding the words "professional" and/or "amateur". In fact, I think it would be detrimental.

That said, eliminating those words would certainly not preclude you from offering your opinion, so I don't know that the question "Does it seem fair or reasonable that one person regardless of who they are be given an opinion and another person not?" is really pertinent. No one, so far as I can tell, has suggested that you not be permitted to offer an opinion. I also don't think there's a problem with identifying someone as a "professional", and I don't think that's what was being suggested. The problem I saw in that other thread was the implications being made that "professionals", for whatever reason, should have special considerations not given to non-professionals. That's the case quite often, but there were some strong cases being made to the contrary.

If we were to eliminate "professional" and "amateur", there are other areas which could be eliminated as a result. Areas such as "The Professional Gallery" would have to go, and "General Shop Talk" is geared towards working pros, so there'd be no reason for that, either.

What would make it a while lot easier would be if people on both sides of the debate pull up their big boy pants and stop getting so offended at differing opinions.

I can foresee this thread being shut down, as well...

Steve5D · Aug 17, 2013

terri said:
Here you go, Scott:

* Should you disagree with a staff member's decision regarding one of your posts, please contact that staffer, or the site owners, privately. Publicly challenging a staff member may result in banning, regardless of who is deemed right. For example: a moderator closes your thread. Opening a new thread on the same topic or to insult or challenge the moderator may lead to your being banned.

Click to expand...

Please conduct yourself according to the guidelines in the FAQ's. This one states how you should proceed at this time.

Thank you for your consideration.

Well, there it is...

vintagesnaps · Aug 17, 2013

I saw that and used the report feature to express that I didn't think there was an appropriate reason to lock the thread. The topic was a real life experience of a professional photographer and seemed to be a legitimate topic of conversation. The thread being locked came across to me as a moderator using authority on the site without a real reason for the action taken; I didn't think it seemed necessary.

412 Burgh · Aug 17, 2013

I love your work and I hope you stick Around. If not you could always make a new username.... Haha

amolitor · Aug 17, 2013

When a mod says 'hey, there's some stuff here that seems iffy to me, could you guys watch it a bit' and you come back with '**** you, you ain't got the balls' it's pretty much certain you're looking at a thread lock.

Not that anybody actually SAID those things, but there was a pretty strong subtext.

If you think your thread got locked because you and manaheim disagree about about the use of "professional" and "amateur" you're simply not paying attention. Your thread got locked because you decided to do some doltish chest thumping.

Robin_Usagani · Aug 17, 2013

Your thread got locked. Oh well... It wont be that bad the second time around.

tirediron · Aug 17, 2013

Leave us not forget that the thread had, as they often do, wandered rather off course; one of the jobs of the moderating team is to keep things on-track (more or less), so that discussions remain at least quasi-relevant to the OPs post/question/point. With respect to the issue of "the moderating not liking it", please don't automatically assume that to be a personal opinion. Often when moderators say that they don't like a particular topic it's because we know that a thread started around that topic will in all probability turn into a train-wreck.

zombiemann · Aug 17, 2013

The problem I saw with the other thread was it in all honesty had nothing to do with pro vs amateur. It was 1 photographer vs an idiot who happened to be an amateur. And then it devolved into a debate as to if "pro's" have the right of way so to speak. A mod came in and said knock it off... you thumbed your nose at it, and the mod locked the thread. Quite frankly I would have lost quite a bit of respect for the mod team if they HADN'T followed through. These guys and gals aren't payed to moderate this place (as far as I know, most forum mods aren't)... they do it because they care about the forums and want to see it be a productive place for photographers of all skill levels share and learn from each other... NOT a place to sling mud. And to be honest, opening another thread to throw a temper tantrum about your other thread being locked... most forums I frequent... you would at least get a time out if not a flat out ban.

Ilovemycam · Aug 17, 2013

Nothing wrong with it OP. But I don't run things. I suggest you open up your own forum. Not being a smart ass, just NONE of the photo forums have full freedom to post and say what you like. ALL the photos forums out there are run for love of $ not for love of frrezing time.

I got banned from the Rangefinder forum for not being a kiss-ass to film. Flickr banned me in 9 days. So just depends who you rub the wrong way.

I have material as well as specialized knowledge you will not find on the net or on ANY photo forum. But as the saying goes...don't throw your pearls before swine. So I just share it privately.